So are there separtionist theists?
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30-06-2010, 10:16 AM
 
So are there separtionist theists?
So I'm sure many of you saw the "One Nation Indivisible" billboard in North Carolina story. Nothing too shocking, but it got me thinking about separation of church and State. Even when I was still very much a Catholic I complete understood and embraced the need for this separation. The problem as I see it is that the groups advocating no prayer in school, and taking God off of money, and out of the pledge etc... are Atheist groups. By their very nature theists are confrontational with atheist. So my question is are their any theist (Christian) sects that promote the separation of Church and State to levels mentioned above, but remain firmly believers. I mean it is possible. Just curious if anyone here has heard of such a group.
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30-06-2010, 12:30 PM
RE: So are there separtionist theists?
i dont live in the US, but here we have a ''goverment religion/church'' wich is a lutheran christian church. religions are not equal.

It can be said that in finland we have a strong goverment church for the next reason:
1. Religion is teached in schools to everyone since 1st grade(unless the parents of a student dont want it) and it favors religions, especially christianity.
2. Burial has been given to be done by the lutherian church and competition in burial business has been prevented with a law. (The free-thinkers help people in having a non-religious burial.)
3.Many religions have the right of taxing, wich means that they collect their membership fee via taxment.
4. The society pays for the priests and other goverment church workers education.
5. The society keeps up theologic faculties and ''religionscientific'' science communities.
6. Religions/churches have jobs wich belong to the society, like right to marry people and such.
7. The society supports govermentchurces with other ways too.

my mother is a christian and one of her professions is a deaconess. she is not the kind of person i would usually expect a christian to be. she knows that she cant argue about the existance of god and understands that bible is written by mankind.
Also she thinks that science and religion have to be kept away from each other and agrees that all worldviews should be equal.

by the way, we still have this one crazy law, its not in active use, last time when someone was convicted to pay tickets because of breaking this law was in 2004, when some rock singer broke a wooden cross during his bands gig and shouted ''FUCK CHRIST''.Big Grin
so the law is this(my translation):
''Who publicly does blasphemy or with a purpose of insulting what a church/religion mentioned in the religionfreedomlaw (267/1922) thinks is holy - - must be convicted to paying tickets or going to jail for maximum of 6months.''
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""Joka julkisesti pilkkaa Jumalaa tai loukkaamistarkoituksessa julkisesti herjaa tai häpäisee sitä, mitä uskonnonvapauslaissa (267/1922) tarkoitettu kirkko tai uskonnollinen yhdyskunta muutoin pitää pyhänä - - on tuomittava uskonrauhan rikkomisesta sakkoon tai vankeuteen enintään kuudeksi kuukaudeksi.""
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many orghanisations demand that the law should be removed, but it has always failed for some reason. in the 80's or 70's one artist was convicted of blasphemy because he painted a painting with a pig nailed to a cross.
and at the same times one book was censored for having a joke sermon wich insulted christianity.

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30-06-2010, 03:19 PM
RE: So are there separtionist theists?
I don't think that there is any religious sect which makes it part of its doctrine to support the separation of church and state, but there are many individual theists who do so.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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03-07-2010, 05:17 AM
 
RE: So are there separtionist theists?
So, here's the issue I have with theists who DO believe in the separation of church and state.

Where are they?

We always hear about moderates of religions: moderate Christians (who support evolution and SOMEHOW reconcile it with religion), moderate Muslims (who would never do harm to anyone who criticizes their religion), etc. But, when push comes to shove, when the fundies become increasingly vocal and start making society worse off than it already is (read: banning homosexuality, rioting due to images of Mohammad, etc), the moderates are incredibly quiet.

I know that they may run a risk of being ostracized by speaking out, but so what? If the extremists are doing something that makes your religion look 'bad', wouldn't it be worth it (in the name of Christ or Mohammad) to speak up, to tell the extremists 'shut up, you moron"?

Honestly, it is the lack of voice from the moderate theists that is making us atheists look the worst, since the only voice of contention to any religious dogma seems to come from our side. If more moderates spoke out against the extremist/fundamentalist agendas, there would be more unity in our voices to combat these folks.
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03-07-2010, 10:05 AM
RE: So are there separtionist theists?
(03-07-2010 05:17 AM)supermanlives1973 Wrote:  So, here's the issue I have with theists who DO believe in the separation of church and state.

Where are they?

In my house.

Quote:We always hear about moderates of religions: moderate Christians (who support evolution and SOMEHOW reconcile it with religion), moderate Muslims (who would never do harm to anyone who criticizes their religion), etc. But, when push comes to shove, when the fundies become increasingly vocal and start making society worse off than it already is (read: banning homosexuality, rioting due to images of Mohammad, etc), the moderates are incredibly quiet.

Well, yes. Because they are moderates. They tend to believe in keeping to themselves.

That aside, there are religious moderates who are very vocal. But you never hear of them. You never see them on the news. Why? Because their opinions are... well... moderate. People don't find moderation interesting, so news programs don't cover them as much as they cover nuts like Glenn Beck.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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06-07-2010, 06:45 AM
 
RE: So are there separtionist theists?
(03-07-2010 10:05 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
Quote:We always hear about moderates of religions: moderate Christians (who support evolution and SOMEHOW reconcile it with religion), moderate Muslims (who would never do harm to anyone who criticizes their religion), etc. But, when push comes to shove, when the fundies become increasingly vocal and start making society worse off than it already is (read: banning homosexuality, rioting due to images of Mohammad, etc), the moderates are incredibly quiet.

Well, yes. Because they are moderates. They tend to believe in keeping to themselves.

That aside, there are religious moderates who are very vocal. But you never hear of them. You never see them on the news. Why? Because their opinions are... well... moderate. People don't find moderation interesting, so news programs don't cover them as much as they cover nuts like Glenn Beck.

Same idea for Atheists too. Most Atheists aren't putting up billboards or putting ads on buses we're just around and nobody even knows. However those are the atheists all atheists are compared too.
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08-07-2010, 01:29 AM
 
RE: So are there separtionist theists?
This forum is just superb, i had been looking for this kind of forum for a long time.
Regards
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09-07-2010, 12:11 AM
 
RE: So are there separtionist theists?
Finally i found this through google
Regards
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