So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
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14-06-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
(14-06-2014 05:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(14-06-2014 05:43 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But seriously, the world washing their hands of the Syrian clusterfuck left a vacuum the good folks at ISIL are more than happy to fill. And the abrupt American hard exit from Iraq did the fumbling state there no good, to fairly predictable consequences - not that there was a good way to resolve that, after the staggering incompetence that was the American occupation...

We essentially had 2 options, neither was good. Option 1: Pull out before the government of Iraq was ready to take over self governing (hint this would basically be ever) Option 2: Make Iraq an American Province without taxation or representation.
Option 3: Nuke 'em all.

Anyway, who is we? and why are we playing god?

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14-06-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
(14-06-2014 06:56 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(14-06-2014 05:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  We essentially had 2 options, neither was good. Option 1: Pull out before the government of Iraq was ready to take over self governing (hint this would basically be ever) Option 2: Make Iraq an American Province without taxation or representation.
Option 3: Nuke 'em all.

Anyway, who is we? and why are we playing god?

We as in the American people voted for this option a few years back (was on of the major planks in Obama's first term goals) McCain wanted to stay in Iraq essentially forever and is one of the reasons he lost the election.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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14-06-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
Soldiers change the current situation, a human touch changes the people.

The US changed the then current situation but not the people. Changing people's views takes time, at least one generation.

You can't force a society to evolve at gunpoint.

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14-06-2014, 07:45 PM
RE: So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
(14-06-2014 05:40 PM)Dom Wrote:  A lot of these people have totally missed out on social evolution, they are stuck in the dark ages.

The only thing that will make any lasting impact over there is education, and the powers that be make that hard to come by.

(14-06-2014 07:10 PM)Dom Wrote:  Soldiers change the current situation, a human touch changes the people.

The US changed the then current situation but not the people. Changing people's views takes time, at least one generation.

You can't force a society to evolve at gunpoint.

Well said on both accounts.

The whole middle east is a mess, from Egypt to to Syria and everywhere in between. The dividing lines of these countries where often drawn arbitrary by former imperial powers after the second world war. There is a long history of brutal dictators in the region, many of them supported and brought to power by the United States. It is also the hot bed for Islamic fundamentalism, which has proven to be arguably the most repressive religion in human history. I would like to believe that peaceable and swift resolution to all of these regional and political conflicts is possible, but I think the middle east is probably in for decades of war and political strife. The only thing that is going to bring them out of that is education. Given enough time that will happen eventually, but, for the time being, the middle east continues to be the most ignorant, the most distrusting, and the most hateful region in the entire world.
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15-06-2014, 03:58 AM
RE: So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
(14-06-2014 07:45 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  ...
Given enough time that will happen eventually, but, for the time being, the middle east continues to be the most ignorant, the most distrusting, and the most hateful region in the entire world.

I was with you up to a point but why such a sweeping generalisation at the end?

From everything I've read on this site over the years about the US, I'd say that "ignorant", "distrusting" and "hateful" are adjectives that could equally be applied to Fox News devotees, a bible-beltful of pastors and half the Republican party.

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15-06-2014, 06:29 AM
RE: So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
Meh.

First thing that needs to happen though is Iraq need a new President, the current one is fucking useless. But this 'Isis' wont be that big of a deal. Iran will send troops to Baghdad (because they'd rather Sunni Iraq than Shite Isis because Isis will eventually pose a threat to Iran as well). The US will send air support (ground troops will never happen at this point, politically not viable). Isis will be beaten back and wont be a direct threat on Baghdad. Iran and Iraq and US air support will retake the Isis captured cities. Isis will flee to Syria and the mountains and shit and remain a terrorist group. Iran will gain political leverage over Iraq. US will fuck off again. Isis will remain and continue to do suicide attacks and all that shit. Iran will help Syrian government win the civil war and Isis will be defeated to the point of unable to gain any real power like they have now (because they wont have anywhere to hide).

And what we will learn from this is Iran came along and solved the whole Al Qaeda/ISIS (Al Qaeda = Isis now btw) situation in both Syria and Iraq where the US couldn't.

'Murica!!

Than, after the Syrian civil war and the defeat of Isis the region will be far more stable (though far from perfect) and each countries governments (Iraq and Syria) can focus on security and stability. Than you'll have a stable Iraq, Syria, Iran (though Iran is already stable), Jordon, Lebanon and than you just need to work on the whole Israeli issue and you're done. (which will likely only happen when Muslims in Israeli have been either forced out, breed out or killed off which is horrible but a reality. And which is inevitable in time).

Easy.

That's my predictions/opinions anyway.

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15-06-2014, 06:35 AM
RE: So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
(15-06-2014 06:29 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Meh.

First thing that needs to happen though is Iraq need a new President, the current one is fucking useless. But this 'Isis' wont be that big of a deal. Iran will send troops to Baghdad (because they'd rather Sunni Iraq than Shite Isis because Isis will eventually pose a threat to Iran as well). The US will send air support (ground troops will never happen at this point, politically not viable). Isis will be beaten back and wont be a direct threat on Baghdad. Iran and Iraq and US air support will retake the Isis captured cities. Isis will flee to Syria and the mountains and shit and remain a terrorist group. Iran will gain political leverage over Iraq. US will fuck off again. Isis will remain and continue to do suicide attacks and all that shit. Iran will help Syrian government win the civil war and Isis will be defeated to the point of unable to gain any real power like they have now (because they wont have anywhere to hide).

And what we will learn from this is Iran came along and solved the whole Al Qaeda/ISIS (Al Qaeda = Isis now btw) situation in both Syria and Iraq where the US couldn't.

'Murica!!

Than, after the Syrian civil war and the defeat of Isis the region will be far more stable (though far from perfect) and each countries governments (Iraq and Syria) can focus on security and stability. Than you'll have a stable Iraq, Syria, Iran (though Iran is already stable), Jordon, Lebanon and than you just need to work on the whole Israeli issue and you're done. (which will likely only happen when Muslims in Israeli have been either forced out, breed out or killed off which is horrible but a reality. And which is inevitable in time).

Easy.

That's my predictions/opinions anyway.

What about the Saudi's? Do you really think they would allow a new persian empire to form with no resistance? Giving Iran control of that much territory would dramatically shift the balance of power away from SA and it's allies. There is no way it would work out that cut a dry.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-06-2014, 08:47 AM
RE: So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
(15-06-2014 03:58 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(14-06-2014 07:45 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  ...
Given enough time that will happen eventually, but, for the time being, the middle east continues to be the most ignorant, the most distrusting, and the most hateful region in the entire world.

I was with you up to a point but why such a sweeping generalisation at the end?

From everything I've read on this site over the years about the US, I'd say that "ignorant", "distrusting" and "hateful" are adjectives that could equally be applied to Fox News devotees, a bible-beltful of pastors and half the Republican party.

Drinking Beverage

I'm not sure if I agree. Maybe it's because of all the images and news reports over the last 20 years which makes it difficult for me to generalize them as a peaceful, happy, carefree and well adjusted people. They kill each other, en mass, over tribal and religious differences. They teach their children at a very young age to hate the Jews. The jihad mentality is prevalent throughout the land, to the point where they'll kill themselves in order to kill their enemies. All your gripes against the US news and pastors are milk toast compared to the hatred displayed in the Middle East. It's a false equivocation, big time.
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15-06-2014, 09:52 AM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2014 09:56 AM by Drunkin Druid.)
RE: So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
Can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq/Syria?
Sure can. At least you guys can. I can't because I'll just make lame jokes and talk about things like socks in a futile attempt to cover up the fact that I don't know shit about what's going on...
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15-06-2014, 10:51 AM
RE: So, can we talk about the fiasco in Iraq / Syria ?
(14-06-2014 04:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You smart old farts, what think you about the developing mess in the Mideast ?

"Developing mess?"

When has the Mideast not been a mess? Drinking Beverage

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