So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
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14-04-2015, 02:41 AM
RE: So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
Meh, make traffic control completely electronic then.

Then let the core of officers needed to that slimmed and only have just routes for quick emergency services.

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14-04-2015, 02:44 AM
RE: So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
(13-04-2015 11:10 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  So... how 'bout it?
I'm gonna assume everyone is against it because you lot haven't actually thought it through and are all anti-business douche bag leftist commie bastards.

So in the spirit of bipartisanship I will offer up my thoughts on the matter.


I think private companies could completely take over traffic control (speeding tickets and shit). And could possibly, along side a public police force, jump on the war on drugs bandwagon.
It would be great if you were rich, because you donate some money each year, or per incident, and the police will give you their platinum service. Meaning no tickets or arrests for you, and they will kindly ensure that no-one gives you any troubles, no poor people move into your neighborhood and disrupt the house prices. Perhaps with a special enough donation you will get a device which encourages traffic lights to always be green for you.

If the fire service where also in your back pocket then your house, your kids school etc will get preferential treatment in the cases where a poor person's house is burning at the same time as yours.

Perhaps the police and the fire brigade will conveniently monitor and locate themselves within a timely distance from your neighborhood.

Would be great if the courts were also privatised, magic would happen if they were in your back pocket.
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14-04-2015, 04:17 AM
RE: So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
(13-04-2015 11:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I thought that was gonna come up.
Prisons are different to speeding tickets. If you speed and get caught you get issued a ticket and some demerits on your licence and that's it. It doesn't matter if it's a cop or a private cop doing that.

Prisons are different because rehabilitation and shit.

To further expand upon my previous post, how in the fuck would you structure a private for-profit citation and fine collection corporation to compete on an open market? In a free market, profit is the driving motivation for competition. But when a private entity takes over a public trust, where is the competition? How does that work? How would it possibly benefit the public over alternative options?

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14-04-2015, 05:56 AM
RE: So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
Speeding tickets and similar laws are supposed to be about public safety, not revenue generation. When you start using your police force as a secondary means of collecting taxes, you get the types of incidents and violence we've seen in St.Louis and New York.

There are also countless examples of cops who were given incentives to generate money setting people up and doing all sorts of things they should not be doing, often ultimately resulting in costly law suits and prison time.

I'm a capitalist, bit outsourcing functions that belong to government is a really bad idea.

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14-04-2015, 05:57 AM
RE: So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
If we were REALLY serious about speed laws -- all vehicles manufactured would have an RFID reader that picked up the posted local speed limits and a governor that would keep the vehicle's speed under that limit.

But, we're not really serious...

We LIKE to break laws (while pretending we never do).

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14-04-2015, 09:14 AM
RE: So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
(13-04-2015 11:30 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 11:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I thought that was gonna come up.
Prisons are different to speeding tickets. If you speed and get caught you get issued a ticket and some demerits on your licence and that's it. It doesn't matter if it's a cop or a private cop doing that.

Prisons are different because rehabilitation and shit.

What if a private cop pulls over a nutjob who starts shooting?

What happens if a cop pulls over a nutjob who starts shooting?
Either way you're gonna have a clusterfuck.
In the case of private you'd capture it on personal camera (and car dash camera) and report it to the Police.

Quote:I don't like that idea. I've yet to meet a private security person that wasn't a total douche.

The only people worse are the ones that think it's the answer to all the ills.
Tongue

I've known many security guards over the years and they've always been pleasant people. And besides, from what I've seen in the news US police aren't exactly outstanding members of society. Dicks are gonna be dicks whether they're Police or private employees.

Quote:Next thing you know, those private cops will be pulling people off of their bikes for no reason.

I see what you did there. I'd like to point out:
a) he was a manager, not a security guard.
b) he wasn't trained in that area
c) He will be held accountable just the same as a private employee would be held accountable.

In regards to C, I think more so because employers will not want their employees doing things that could get them sued. If you sue the Police now no big deal, tax payer pays. If you sue a private company the tax payer doesn't pay shit.
There's a strong incentive in private companies to behave.

More so compared to public organizations anyway.

Quote:Seems like lately the cops are total douches, too. Still. Dumb idea, muffs.

Dumb idea how? Care to elaborate?

Quote:No, the point being that you do not want a profit motive behind servicing the law.

Lawyers, prisons, security guards, parking cunt guys etc... This things already exist, it's not a stretch to extend it to traffic control.
I agree prison shouldn't be private owned (I've said this many times) but traffic control is not prisons. You can't lump it all into one category, they're completely different.

Quote:Put a private corporation beholden to share-holders in charge of the issuing and collection of citations and fines, and they're now incentivized to issue more citations to increase the revenue from fines.

How is that a bad thing? Don't speed.

Quote:Now the system isn't there to serve deterrence or safety or the public good, now it's there to generate profits.

It still serves as a deterrence (because you don't want a fine) and so it does still act in the public good/safety.

Quote:It is this aspect which they share with for-profit prisons, their pursuit of profit at the expense of the public good masquerading as a public service.

Prisons =/= speeding/other traffic offenses.

Quote:Ah, yeah...the old let's put a profit motive into law enforcement. Where the fuck have I seen that recently? Oh, yeah.....


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local...tml#page=1

Because public police force has never done anything wrong? Seen the news lately?
Difference being it's shareholders who pay, not tax payers.

Quote:Meh, make traffic control completely electronic then.

No that defeats the purpose of pulling people over. Traffic cameras stop speeding for 50m until they get around the next corner. Cops actively patrolling and being seen to pull people over is a much more effective means of getting people to slow down. This same effect could be caused by private owned employees with the same powers as traffic cops.

Quote:It would be great if you were rich, because you donate some money each year, or per incident, and the police will give you their platinum service. Meaning no tickets or arrests for you, and they will kindly ensure that no-one gives you any troubles, no poor people move into your neighborhood and disrupt the house prices. Perhaps with a special enough donation you will get a device which encourages traffic lights to always be green for you.

That's stupid and not how it would work.
It would of course be regulated.

You also assume that public employees can't be bribed...

Quote:To further expand upon my previous post, how in the fuck would you structure a private for-profit citation and fine collection corporation to compete on an open market? In a free market, profit is the driving motivation for competition. But when a private entity takes over a public trust, where is the competition? How does that work? How would it possibly benefit the public over alternative options?

Consider

Quote:Speeding tickets and similar laws are supposed to be about public safety, not revenue generation. When you start using your police force as a secondary means of collecting taxes, you get the types of incidents and violence we've seen in St.Louis and New York.

And it doesn't matter if they're issued by cops or private employees they still do their job (the fines) and act as a deterrent. A fine is a fine, doesn't matter who issued it.

Quote:There are also countless examples of cops who were given incentives to generate money setting people up and doing all sorts of things they should not be doing, often ultimately resulting in costly law suits and prison time.

I'm not saying it'd be perfect but is the current police force? Well you already answered that. Employees would be beholden to share-holders who would have to pay up if losing a lawsuit so there is more incentive for management to make sure their staff behave.

Quote:I'm a capitalist, bit outsourcing functions that belong to government is a really bad idea.

No it's not.

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14-04-2015, 10:31 AM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2015 11:43 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:No, the point being that you do not want a profit motive behind servicing the law.
Lawyers, prisons, security guards, parking cunt guys etc... This things already exist, it's not a stretch to extend it to traffic control.


Because ideally you want the law to be enforced by public servants who are operating for the public good, and both beholden and accountable to the public.

Private corporations are none of those things.



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I agree prison shouldn't be private owned (I've said this many times) but traffic control is not prisons. You can't lump it all into one category, they're completely different.


Why do we attempt to control traffic? For safety, because it's for the public good. We don't control traffic and place limits on it for the purpose of making a profit, but rather for the betterment of the public.

The public is not well served when they're given a lower priority than turning a profit for private coffers, and at their expense no less.



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Put a private corporation beholden to share-holders in charge of the issuing and collection of citations and fines, and they're now incentivized to issue more citations to increase the revenue from fines.
How is that a bad thing? Don't speed.


Facepalm

Did you even read the article about the automatic traffic camera scandal in Chicago?

It's not enough to 'not speed', whenever those in control of the system have a profit incentive to 'tweak' the system slightly to generate greater profits, catching people for speeding who in fact were not actually speeding.

We call that fraud muffs.



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Now the system isn't there to serve deterrence or safety or the public good, now it's there to generate profits.
It still serves as a deterrence (because you don't want a fine) and so it does still act in the public good/safety.


But deterrence is no longer the goal, profits are the goal; and that leads to the aforementioned corruption, kickbacks, and fraud. Especially when innocent people are issued citation in the name of further corporate profits.

That is not justice.



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:It is this aspect which they share with for-profit prisons, their pursuit of profit at the expense of the public good masquerading as a public service.
Prisons =/= speeding/other traffic offenses.


Doesn't matter muffs, my point is and will remain, that you do not want to have a profit motive behind people trusted to enforce the law. It doesn't matter whether it's the issuing of citations or the housing of inmates; corporate profits should never be a deciding factor when adjudicating the application of the law in the name of the public trust.

Corporations are not beholden to the public, they should never be responsible for the public trust.



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Ah, yeah...the old let's put a profit motive into law enforcement. Where the fuck have I seen that recently? Oh, yeah.....
Because public police force has never done anything wrong? Seen the news lately?
Difference being it's shareholders who pay, not tax payers.


No. When the public is the victim of fraud that benefits the profits of private corporations, the tax paying public does in fact pay. Facepalm



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Meh, make traffic control completely electronic then.
No that defeats the purpose of pulling people over. Traffic cameras stop speeding for 50m until they get around the next corner. Cops actively patrolling and being seen to pull people over is a much more effective means of getting people to slow down. This same effect could be caused by private owned employees with the same powers as traffic cops.


Right, let's give rent-a-cops the ability to order citations and collect fines. Nothing can go wrong there, I'm sure...



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:It would be great if you were rich, because you donate some money each year, or per incident, and the police will give you their platinum service. Meaning no tickets or arrests for you, and they will kindly ensure that no-one gives you any troubles, no poor people move into your neighborhood and disrupt the house prices. Perhaps with a special enough donation you will get a device which encourages traffic lights to always be green for you.
That's stupid and not how it would work.
It would of course be regulated.

You also assume that public employees can't be bribed...


The only way to entice a private company to overtake a public service is if there is money to be made, they have to be incentivized by profits. Whereas a government operation does not have a profit motive. If it can be regulated and enforced, why have a private entity over a public one? Why have a group of people, not beholden or accountable to the public and charged with the goal of making money above all else, be a better option than just regulating public employees and entities?



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:To further expand upon my previous post, how in the fuck would you structure a private for-profit citation and fine collection corporation to compete on an open market? In a free market, profit is the driving motivation for competition. But when a private entity takes over a public trust, where is the competition? How does that work? How would it possibly benefit the public over alternative options?
Consider


Thanks for proving my point. Dodgy



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Speeding tickets and similar laws are supposed to be about public safety, not revenue generation. When you start using your police force as a secondary means of collecting taxes, you get the types of incidents and violence we've seen in St.Louis and New York.
And it doesn't matter if they're issued by cops or private employees they still do their job (the fines) and act as a deterrent. A fine is a fine, doesn't matter who issued it.


Unless they're issued punitively or erroneously, both of which are far more likely when your primary goal is to increase profits rather than serve the public trust.



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:There are also countless examples of cops who were given incentives to generate money setting people up and doing all sorts of things they should not be doing, often ultimately resulting in costly law suits and prison time.
I'm not saying it'd be perfect but is the current police force? Well you already answered that. Employees would be beholden to share-holders who would have to pay up if losing a lawsuit so there is more incentive for management to make sure their staff behave.


No, they now just have an incentive to bribe public officials in charge of oversight, as seen in the massive bribery and kickback scandal in Chicago that you seemingly failed to read. Plus, the men high enough up in the corporations to make and profit from these actions are almost never held accountable. Even if the corporation tanks and takes the shareholders with it, top executives get off free and easy with guaranteed severance packages while the employees lose their 401K's and health insurance.

See Also: Enron, Wall Street, and the 'too big to fail' Banks. Dodgy



(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:I'm a capitalist, bit outsourcing functions that belong to government is a really bad idea.
No it's not.

If the ultimate goal is to serve the public trust, then yes it fucking is.

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14-04-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
Quote:Dumb idea how? Care to elaborate?

I did. See the Chicago traffic light scam story. You don't think that's unique, do you?

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14-04-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
(14-04-2015 09:14 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:There are also countless examples of cops who were given incentives to generate money setting people up and doing all sorts of things they should not be doing, often ultimately resulting in costly law suits and prison time.

I'm not saying it'd be perfect but is the current police force? Well you already answered that. Employees would be beholden to share-holders who would have to pay up if losing a lawsuit so there is more incentive for management to make sure their staff behave.

Public employees are theoretically accountable to the whole public. Private employees are - by definition - not. They would be less accountable; period.

One might, I suppose, argue that a private system which works perfectly is better than a public system which does not. Sure, I guess. How the hell is that even remotely relevant to anything?

Which brings us to the regulation and oversight you also mention above. If "private" policing agencies are subject to government oversight and bound by government regulation then what's the point of them being private?

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14-04-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: So... how 'bout that private police force eh?
Quote:Public employees are theoretically accountable to the whole public.

Yea, but the tax payer that pays for their fuck-ups doesn't care enough.
Shareholders losing their actual money however...

Quote:They would be less accountable; period.

Accountable to less people but not 'less' accountable because the people they are accountable too (shareholders) have a lot of power over them where as individual tax payers do not have a whole lot of power.

Anyway, the consequences would be the same if it was cop or private employee. If you shoot and kill someone simply because they're black you're gonna go to jail. Unless you're a cop though, than you'll get a slap on the wrist and told to go home and have a rest.

Quote:One might, I suppose, argue that a private system which works perfectly is better than a public system which does not. Sure, I guess. How the hell is that even remotely relevant to anything?

I'm not saying that it done privately would mean it would be done perfectly.

Quote:Which brings us to the regulation and oversight you also mention above. If "private" policing agencies are subject to government oversight and bound by government regulation then what's the point of them being private?

Regulation is cheaper. 1 dude with a clip board versus an entire police force.
Private company bares the costs of employment and running costs (cars, petrol etc..). Private companies bare the costs of any wrong doing (resulting in lawsuits etc..). These people would need less training compared to cops (because they would be JUST traffic control). It would allow for police to focus on other areas such as homicide. It would take pressure off police to prevent car crashes and shit allowing them to focus on other shit. Tax revenue rather than tax burden.

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