Poll: Are you progressive, do you think most here are and do you think conservatives may be uncomfortable here?
I identify as progressive, I think most people here are also progressive and yes I do think conservatives probably feel uncomfortable sharing their political views here.
I identify as progressive, I think most people here are also progressive but I doubt if conservatives actually feel uncomfortable sharing their political views here.
I identify as progressive but I doubt if most people here are also progressive and regardless I doubt if conservatives feel uncomfortable about sharing their political views here.
I identify as progressive but I doubt if most people here are also progressive and regardless conservatives probably do feel uncomfortable about sharing their political views here.
I identify as conservative but I think most people here are progressive, and I do in fact feel uncomfortable sharing my political views here.
I identify as conservative but I think most people here are progressive, and I at least do not feel uncomfortable sharing my political views here.
I identify as conservative but I don't think most people here are progressive, and I do in fact feel uncomfortable sharing my political views.
I identify as conservative but I don't think most people here are progressive, and I at least do not feel uncomfortable sharing my political views.
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So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
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29-06-2017, 12:38 PM
RE: So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
(29-06-2017 12:33 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I'm pro liberty - no problem with euthanasia, abortion, decriminalizing drugs (heard Portugal is doing quite nice, but I'm not sure), same sex marriage or legal prostitution. As long as there is no coercion and harm to other people I don't care what consenting adults do. I'm also not opposed to welfare state. I don't like church, right wingers and tradition. Possibly that makes me progressive according to your definition but it isn't word that I would use to describe myself.

I think there are quite a few "progressives" here and if conservatives feel uncomfortable when sharing their political views then that's tough. And maybe that is a sign of something being wrong with said views.

I agree with you to a point, however I do think it unwise to go the direction you did at the end. It would seem to preclude the possibility that you may be wrong, or that some individual situations might require a different approach, if that makes sense. It's "Othering" people who may be a valuable resource to you for survival in the future, the more ideas thoughts and opinions we have in the world the better I think. I value even the wrong ideas for what they are.

I remember an anecdote, I don't know how accurate it is and I'm paraphrasing. When asked how it felt to fail 1,000 times to create the light bulb Thomas Edison responded with "I didn't fail 1,000 times to create the light bulb, I succeeded in finding 1,000 ways you can't make a light bulb"

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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29-06-2017, 12:39 PM
RE: So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
Some people *call* themselves "conservative" even though they really are not, in any way, (for example those who supported DJ Trump, who is not in ANY way a conservative).

*Real conservatives* would (for example) espouse the fundamentally true values in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, such as "ALL men are created EQUAL, and thus ALL are entitled to the SAME and equal civil rights). THAT is the REAL *conservative* position, (such as on SS marriage ... it's for EVERYONE, not just the few).

Labels can be very misleading, and unproductive. If you can defend a position, then declare it. If it's STUPID, expect to be called out and challenged.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-06-2017, 12:41 PM
RE: So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
(29-06-2017 12:16 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 12:09 PM)julep Wrote:  I think conservatives are about as oppressed on this site as Christians are in the US. Which is to say, not at all, but it doesn't stop some from whining about persecution whenever their ideas are critiqued.

None of the poll options fits my position, since I don't agree with the definitions you give of conservative and progressive. (the conservatives in the US are the ones trying to alter the status quo, and the opposing party has no positions which are truly progressive and are trying to preserve the status quo)


I agree with you that conservatives (republicans/Trump) are very much trying to alter the status quo. But of course they feel they are merely moving the status quo back to where it had been before the civil rights movement and a bunch of legislating, liberal justices had changed it.

I also agree that while the democrats are opposing those efforts, they are a far cry from being truly progressive. You might say, they have become conservative about maintaining the new normal, post civil rights era.

The poll does't matter to me in the least. The discussion is what matters. So thanks.

A book I just finished, Democracy in Chains, provides an interesting and horrifying perspective on the US conservative agenda. It makes a pretty solid case that the status quo they are working toward is that of the robber barons of the 1890s.

I agree with you that the impetus of the modern conservative movement in the US was wealthy people's outrage over the upset of the status quo that occurred when their tax monies started being used to provide benefits to minorities and the poor, beginning with the New Deal and then accelerating with the civil rights and Great Society movements. (It's not that they are anti-opportunity or charity, they argue, it's that taxes force them to give without allowing them to set the conditions. Funny how little meaningful opportunity or charity the wealthy give when their hand is not forced.)
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29-06-2017, 12:45 PM
RE: So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
(29-06-2017 12:41 PM)julep Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 12:16 PM)whateverist Wrote:  I agree with you that conservatives (republicans/Trump) are very much trying to alter the status quo. But of course they feel they are merely moving the status quo back to where it had been before the civil rights movement and a bunch of legislating, liberal justices had changed it.

I also agree that while the democrats are opposing those efforts, they are a far cry from being truly progressive. You might say, they have become conservative about maintaining the new normal, post civil rights era.

The poll does't matter to me in the least. The discussion is what matters. So thanks.

A book I just finished, Democracy in Chains, provides an interesting and horrifying perspective on the US conservative agenda. It makes a pretty solid case that the status quo they are working toward is that of the robber barons of the 1890s.

I agree with you that the impetus of the modern conservative movement in the US was wealthy people's outrage over the upset of the status quo that occurred when their tax monies started being used to provide benefits to minorities and the poor, beginning with the New Deal and then accelerating with the civil rights and Great Society movements. (It's not that they are anti-opportunity or charity, they argue, it's that taxes force them to give without allowing them to set the conditions. Funny how little meaningful opportunity or charity the wealthy give when their hand is not forced.)

This post also by chance destroys the concept of trickle down economics in fewer words than I've ever seen before.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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29-06-2017, 12:48 PM
RE: So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
(29-06-2017 12:27 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 12:19 PM)whateverist Wrote:  When you argue in favor of your political views - an example might help - what principles do you point to as justifying your stance?

Though you asked Lord Dark Helm, I'd like to answer this if you don't mind.

Honesty and Respect to myself and objective reality to the best of my ability. When I fail to stand up for other's it is as much a failure to myself as it is a failure to them. When I make a mistake or spread false information it's as much a failure to myself as it is those who may read my mistakes and be swayed by them. I have a mind and thoughts and with that comes responsibility, I have ethics and principles that are very well defined and a strong sense of... duty to myself to be the best person I can be and always maintain the highest level of intellectual integrity and honesty that I am able to achieve. A part of this also includes being Just with people, not holding grudges or fostering hate towards anyone simply because we may at times disagree. In fact I fully expect to disagree with every person I speak with at some point or another, It would not do me well to hate the world, and I'd prefer not to be hated by the world.

To do any less would be the only way to truly degrade myself (at least within my own mind)


Well I'd certainly be happy to encounter more people like yourself in the world.

Thinking back to the question you responded to here, I suspect you wouldn't often get into an argument where you thought the other person just should feel as you do for reasons independent of their own values and goals. But suppose someone wished to argue that the ACA needed to be repealed and replaced because too many people get a free ride when the nanny state robs from those with more to give a free handout to others. Sure, tens of millions of people will lose healthcare but it erodes people's motivation to ever provide for themselves when government steps in, weakening our national character.* I don't know about you, but I think that position needs to be confronted. The people who hold it do not need to be vilified but such a policy would be monstrous for so many.

*This is me trying to express it as a conservative might, not anything I agree with of course.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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29-06-2017, 12:52 PM (This post was last modified: 29-06-2017 01:54 PM by whateverist.)
RE: So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
(29-06-2017 12:33 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I'm pro liberty - no problem with euthanasia, abortion, decriminalizing drugs (heard Portugal is doing quite nice, but I'm not sure), same sex marriage or legal prostitution. As long as there is no coercion and harm to other people I don't care what consenting adults do. I'm also not opposed to welfare state. I don't like church, right wingers and tradition. Possibly that makes me progressive according to your definition but it isn't word that I would use to describe myself.

I think there are quite a few "progressives" here and if conservatives feel uncomfortable when sharing their political views then that's tough. And maybe that is a sign of something being wrong with said views.


It is tempting to give you a "right on" as I likewise feel that ideas have to stand on their own merit. But it seems too reactionary and I don't think it is productive. I think an expansion of view point is needed here, not that I'm there yet.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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29-06-2017, 12:54 PM (This post was last modified: 29-06-2017 12:58 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
(29-06-2017 12:38 PM)JesseB Wrote:  I agree with you to a point, however I do think it unwise to go the direction you did at the end. It would seem to preclude the possibility that you may be wrong, or that some individual situations might require a different approach, if that makes sense. It's "Othering" people who may be a valuable resource to you for survival in the future, the more ideas thoughts and opinions we have in the world the better I think. I value even the wrong ideas for what they are.

I can hardly be wrong there as it is about what I value not what can be done and how cost/benefits table would look like. I can't be wrong in liking color blue to say it succinctly if maybe not accurately.

But on the practical side I can't see anything wrong with what I would support and I can't see much place to be wrong. Sure, legalizing euthanasia can lead to some deaths with stretch the limit of the term but I can't in good conscience oppose it, for it's not up to me to decide how long one should suffer. Rest is even less risky - abortion should be a women right regardless of circumstances; one could say that it is now, for wealthy women, so there won't be much change, only less hypocrisy. Same sex marriage isn't harmful at all, Portugal drug policy seems to be working good. Only legal prostitution can be issue - I'm for it cause everyone has right to sell sex and cause I've never saw serious arguments against. But if downsides would be bigger than upside then I'm willing to scratch it.

I don't value ideas I deem wrong. Often I despise them - I have no respect for people opposing euthanasia for example as - in my experience - they're against cause god, without fucking original though. And it is thanks to such shitheads that people would could find peace in death still suffer. Same with abortion and sex ed - denying it only makes situation worse for those most vulnerable - children. So why should I value idea saying that sex ed and abortion bad?

(29-06-2017 12:52 PM)whateverist Wrote:  It is tempting to give you a "right on" as I likewise feel that ideas have to stand on their own merit. But it seems to reactionary and I don't think it is productive. I think an expansion of view point is needed here, not that I'm there yet.

I may be biased against "conservatives" - though I most often use catch all term right-wingers - but I care not. I'm not interested in being nice to bigots, nationalists, religious clowns, neo nazis, authoritarian jerks or whoever else is part of Polish right wing*.


*There are good people there too. Possibly. Haven't met nor read about such.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-06-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
(29-06-2017 12:41 PM)julep Wrote:  I agree with you that the impetus of the modern conservative movement in the US was wealthy people's outrage over the upset of the status quo that occurred when their tax monies started being used to provide benefits to minorities and the poor, beginning with the New Deal and then accelerating with the civil rights and Great Society movements. (It's not that they are anti-opportunity or charity, they argue, it's that taxes force them to give without allowing them to set the conditions. Funny how little meaningful opportunity or charity the wealthy give when their hand is not forced.)


Yeah and in Trump's case it seems that most of his 'charity' enriches him more than anyone else. But then I don't suppose Trump is really a good example of a principled conservative. He is more of a self-serving, narcissistic opportunist. But I don't think most conservatives are that way, though plenty that identify as conservative are as reactionary and ignorant as he is.


Yikes. Got to get to work. More later. Looking forward to catching up.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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29-06-2017, 01:00 PM
RE: So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
(29-06-2017 12:54 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 12:38 PM)JesseB Wrote:  I agree with you to a point, however I do think it unwise to go the direction you did at the end. It would seem to preclude the possibility that you may be wrong, or that some individual situations might require a different approach, if that makes sense. It's "Othering" people who may be a valuable resource to you for survival in the future, the more ideas thoughts and opinions we have in the world the better I think. I value even the wrong ideas for what they are.

I can hardly be wrong there as it is about what I value not what can be done and how cost/benefits table would look like. I can't be wrong in liking color blue to say it succinctly if maybe not accurately.

But on the practical side I can't see anything wrong with what I would support and I can't see much place to be wrong. Sure, legalizing euthanasia can lead to some deaths with stretch the limit of the term but I can't in good conscience oppose it, for it's not up to me to decide how long one should suffer. Rest is even less risky - abortion should be a women right regardless of circumstances; one could say that it is now, for wealthy women, so there won't be much change, only less hypocrisy. Same sex marriage isn't harmful at all, Portugal drug policy seems to be working good. Only legal prostitution can be issue - I'm for it cause everyone has right to sell sex and cause I've never saw serious arguments against. But if downsides would be bigger than upside then I'm willing to scratch it.

I don't value ideas I deem wrong. Often I despise them - I have no respect for people opposing euthanasia for example as - in my experience - they're against cause god, without fucking original though. And it is thanks to such shitheads that people would could find peace in death still suffer. Same with abortion and sex ed - denying it only makes situation worse for those most vulnerable - children. So why should I value idea saying that sex ed and abortion bad?

It's the level of black and white thinking, the "I'm 100% correct on everything and everything I think is right, and everything else is 100% evil" that I find concerning. Perhaps that's not what you intend, but when you say you despise people who oppose your viewpoints, I find that very disconcerting. And I don't think I personally disagree with any of the positions you listed. Still...

I absolutely do not dispose people for not blindly accepting those positions, or having what they think are viable alternatives, or what they think are legitimate concerns. More important despising and demonizing all who don't agree with you 100% is exactly how every mass murder situation involving a dictator against their own population has ever happened.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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29-06-2017, 01:09 PM
RE: So is this site also predominantly progressive rather than conservative politically?
(29-06-2017 12:32 PM)whateverist Wrote:  ...
Do you find you skew one way or the other on the progressive/conservative continuum?

I'm both.

I'm risk averse in some scenarios and an explorer (seeker of change) in other scenarios.

I'm in the process of diagamising morality. I've got as far as the macro view (although it's in a disjointed, draft form) in flow diagram format but I need to get to a micro level (network diagrams) to give my hypothesis some substance.

I'm going to have to tackle something which I've been avoiding... consciousness. That's my next task.
But at least I've got as far as answering the question as to what distinguishes a 'preference' question from a 'social' question from a 'moral' question (I think).

Unsure

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