So it's impossible.
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30-10-2013, 06:21 AM
RE: So it's impossible.
(29-10-2013 08:40 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Are you still friends then? Big Grin

Yes we are still friends. We plan on talking again as soon as exams end.

(29-10-2013 08:54 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I have to say the fact he believes in Satan, freaks me out more than God.
most christians don't think theres a devil, or they never mention it.

Isn't it strange to be afraid of the devil though? What crimes did he commit in the bible? If you read the bible objectively, it seems that the guy getting the wrong end of the stick is the devil/Lucy Fur (as DarkMatter2525 on youtube would say. I love his videos). God wiped out the whole earth in a flood, killed innocent Egyptian children who had nothing to do with anything etc, etc.

(29-10-2013 09:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  They trust some apologist who says they have looked into the issue and that they found the answer. The apologist explains the answer and from a theistic viewpoint without further knowledge the answer seems to make sense. Prompt. Answer. Prompt. Answer. Easy. That's a debate, right?

Ironically, I was being accused of the same thing. Replace apologist with scientist and that's what I was facing. I then went into an explanation of the scientific method of testing. Anyone can come to you and say, "Here's my evidence" on a particular subject. It is only with the scientific method of testing that we are able to say, "Here's my UNBIASED evidence" on this subject. My friend tried to claim that we merely took what past scientist came up with as true and did not evaluate what they have done. I said science tries to get to the truth. Science will test the claims of what past scientists have claimed because science is concerned with making the most accurate models of our reality as we know it. Religion isn't even in the same ball arena in terms of truth. Religion makes terminal statements like "This is the absolute truth". I watched a video youtube done by the TTA where it was said that it is not a weakness that science makes revisions. This should be viewed as a strength rather than a weakness. It should be thought of as the sharpening of a tool for cutting. Religion can't do this because it claims what is in there is the absolute truth.

(29-10-2013 09:57 AM)Escape Artist Wrote:  Oh, Jesus-titty-fucking-Christ (to borrow a phrase from Tartarus). Dodgy Does he not think that the folks involved in the Council of Nicea probably had ulterior motives as well? From my understanding, they just chose what was currently popular with the churchgoers and pastors.

This is a phenomenal point. I can't believe I didn't think of that. Even the council of Laodicia in AD 336 where they hand picked the scriptures. If there was something that promoted women they took it out.

(29-10-2013 11:22 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Not true. I've had many successful debates with many atheists here.

Be that as it may, you're probably not someone that would destroy an argument by making it descend into "you can't trust what anyone claims including scientists if you didn't do it yourself", just to protect your belief in god. This is a sort of fail safe tactic people use. Since I can't get into the house I'd rather burn it down. The house being the argument; Getting in is a reference to making valid points.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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30-10-2013, 07:08 AM
RE: So it's impossible.
(30-10-2013 06:21 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  
(29-10-2013 09:57 AM)Escape Artist Wrote:  Oh, Jesus-titty-fucking-Christ (to borrow a phrase from Tartarus). Dodgy Does he not think that the folks involved in the Council of Nicea probably had ulterior motives as well? From my understanding, they just chose what was currently popular with the churchgoers and pastors.

This is a phenomenal point. I can't believe I didn't think of that. Even the council of Laodicia in AD 336 where they hand picked the scriptures. If there was something that promoted women they took it out.

Aww, thanks. Blush

I'll have to contribute to the serious stuff more often, then.

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30-10-2013, 07:08 AM
RE: So it's impossible.
(29-10-2013 11:33 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(29-10-2013 11:22 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Not true. I've had many successful debates with many atheists here.

That's because you are willing to have an actual discussion and not just retreat into "lalalala God did it" every time you are asked a question. Most people are not smart enough/have not thought out their metaphysics enough to do so. This is true of most things. Politics for example once you get past the talking points most people have not thought out the reason they are a member of the party they are part of.

As to the OP never debate a theist in private, it is excruciating and will usually benefit no one. You can discuss with your friend but don't try to change his mind. Doesn't work that way. Simply ask questions eventually they will either retreat or realize they do not have the answer. It can take years for this to happen so don't expect to have a brand new Atheist in 1 session. In public the debate is not for your opponent but for the audience. Stay calm and rational and let the people watching, most of whom have some doubts and insecurities, realize that religion is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors designed by the powerful to keep the weak in line.

Not sure what kc considers 'successful'. All of the debates stayed reasonably polite, but they all ended with kc doing a 'lalalala, that's my belief and interpretation of the scriptures'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-10-2013, 07:27 AM
So it's impossible.
The bible is only good at "predicting" past events. Ask him to use the bible
to give some predictions of the near future that are not obvious.
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30-10-2013, 07:28 AM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2013 07:36 AM by BlackMason.)
RE: So it's impossible.
(30-10-2013 07:08 AM)Escape Artist Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 06:21 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  This is a phenomenal point. I can't believe I didn't think of that. Even the council of Laodicia in AD 336 where they hand picked the scriptures. If there was something that promoted women they took it out.

Aww, thanks. Blush

I'll have to contribute to the serious stuff more often, then.

You're not bad at allThumbsup.

(30-10-2013 07:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-10-2013 11:33 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That's because you are willing to have an actual discussion and not just retreat into "lalalala God did it" every time you are asked a question. Most people are not smart enough/have not thought out their metaphysics enough to do so. This is true of most things. Politics for example once you get past the talking points most people have not thought out the reason they are a member of the party they are part of.

As to the OP never debate a theist in private, it is excruciating and will usually benefit no one. You can discuss with your friend but don't try to change his mind. Doesn't work that way. Simply ask questions eventually they will either retreat or realize they do not have the answer. It can take years for this to happen so don't expect to have a brand new Atheist in 1 session. In public the debate is not for your opponent but for the audience. Stay calm and rational and let the people watching, most of whom have some doubts and insecurities, realize that religion is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors designed by the powerful to keep the weak in line.
Not sure what kc considers 'successful'. All of the debates stayed reasonably polite, but they all ended with kc doing a 'lalalala, that's my belief and interpretation of the scriptures'.

That is one of the reasons religion is bogus. It's subjective. I'd like to echo what I read in a cartoon depiction of religion. There is no way of knowing what is literal or metaphorical before reading a chapter or verse. This makes it a little game. If a modern day person reads Noah's ark they'll be prompted to believe it is an allegorical story. But rewind 100s of years and those people would believe it is true in the literal sense. This causes gross inconsistencies and there is little wonder why there are over 30 thousand versions of christianity all claiming the other is wrong. God was so vocal back in the day, so why does he sit in silence and watch his religion become a mockery?

(30-10-2013 07:27 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  The bible is only good at "predicting" past events. Ask him to use the bible
to give some predictions of the near future that are not obvious.

This is true! I believe that bible prophecy is a joke. When something is deemed a prophecy there, you get people who will start working their asses off to fulfill that prophecy. This makes the prophecy true but false at the same time. If I go to a restaurant and order chicken wings and pork ribs, and then I say the waiter will come with chicken wings and pork ribs in 20 minutes, am I a prophet too?

Also the prophesies are vague. They aren't explicit. An example: Two brothers will fall. Believer says you see!! This was a prophecy of the twin towers coming down in New York. My quarrel is why not say THE TWIN TOWERS in the prophecy? I hate the rationalisations in prophecy!!!

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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