So remember when that teacher gave me a book to read..
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30-10-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: So remember when that teacher gave me a book to read..
(30-10-2016 03:19 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(30-10-2016 02:26 PM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  I pointed out all of the different reason to him why this was not true. To me he is bending the bible. He also called it a place to dry nets.. He said God was pretty accurate

Yeah, except it's no more a "place to dry nets" than every other harbor-city on the entire rest of the Mediterranean coast. And it's certainly not a "barren rock", forever, as stated by the prophecy.

He's the one twisting words and ignoring part of the prophecy. Prophecy isn't "sling a bunch of mud at the wall and see what parts stick". Either you knew in advance everything that was going to happen, or you didn't. They quote the parts that work and ignore the parts that clearly, clearly fail.

And even if some ancient "prophet" had correctly predicted, in his angry rant against the King of Tyre, that the rampaging conqueror Nebuchadnezzar would be the first military force to be successful against Tyre's little island fortress... it still doesn't mean that there was some divine agent feeding Ezekiel the future-predicting information. Sadly, Nebuchadnezzar didn't actually conquer the island, and knocking out the mainland (less-defended) part of the city is irrelevant in terms of such a prediction. It's pretty much the opposite of "accurate". It's a strong prediction that is inaccurate if read literally, and must be read pretty vaguely to even remotely be called confirmed.

An ACCURATE prediction would be "Nebuchadnezzar will besiege your city for a decade, but never manage to overwhelm your fortress, and will withdraw having only destroyed the mainland part of the settlement. Later, in a few hundred years, a Macedonian will come along and do what Nebuchadnezzar tried and failed to do. After that, though, your city will be rebuilt except for some ruins of the old, mainland city, which will be preserved for posterity."

Good points...and if you take a look in Ezekiel (where you'll find the Tyre prophecy)--you also find other prophecies in that Book that did not come true (as well as in many other areas of the Bible).

From SAB:

Re: Tyre prophecy--
Ezekiel prophesies that Tyrus will be completely destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and will never be built again. But it wasn't destroyed, as evidenced by the visits to Tyre by Jesus and Paul (Mt 15:21, Mk 7:24, 31, Acts 21:3). 26:14,21, 27:36, 28:19

Ezekiel makes another false prophecy: that Egypt would be uninhabited by humans or animals for forty years after being destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. But there was never a time when Egypt was uninhabited. Humans and animals have lived there continuously since Ezekiel's prophecy. 29:10-11

The rivers of Egypt (identified as the Nile in NIV, NASB, and RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 30:12

Ezekiel prophesies God will protect the Israelites from "the heathen". "And they shall be safe in their land." But the Israelites have never lived peacefully with their neighbors, and they've never been safe from attack. 34:28-29
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30-10-2016, 04:22 PM
RE: So remember when that teacher gave me a book to read..
Sorry, I know I already answered this, but your teacher pisses me off a lot with this list, and I feel I need to address some more of it.

(30-10-2016 10:00 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  From the top of my head his responses were basically downing science because something is basically a fact until it's not and the process starts over

I have never understood their objection to the idea that every "fact" should be subject to review and revision at all times, for all time.

But I would be curious to know what he thinks "was a fact until it's not and the process starts over". I can't think of one example of this.

Yes, we've had some ideas that turned out to be partially unfounded or inaccurate, but they were replaced usually by better-refined versions of the same argument.

An example is Newtonian motion. Yes, Einstin's relativistic motion laws replaced Newton's, but Newton wasn't totally wrong-- he simply hadn't taken very large velocities into account, in terms of spacetime. But Newton is still a pretty good model at "normal" human scales. In biology, an example is Lamarckian adaption-inheritance (the idea that an individual adapts to an environment and passes those adaptations on to the offspring so they'll also better-suit the environment), which turned out to be wrong because it's actually genetic inheritance of superior traits that randomly appear and the better breeding/survival success of those with those random traits... but while the mechanism Lamarckism was wrong, the phenomenon it was describing (populations generationally change and adapt to environments) was not.

So I would hold his feet to the fire on what exactly he means by "and then it starts over". See if he can furnish an example of when information produced via the Scientific Method turned out to be 100% wrong and requiring of a total, square-one rewrite, as he he has suggested. Also, remind him that "Lying for Jesus is still lying."

(30-10-2016 10:00 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  The bible has never been disproven by fact

Except where it has. Repeatedly. An example is the Lamarckian inheritance, mentioned above. The Bible claims that Jacob got his wealth from cleverly tricking his boss, Laban, into giving him a large herd of sheep by asking if he could keep the speckled and spotted ones, then cutting strips into poplar brances (so they showed stripes of light-and-dark wood) that he placed in front of them when they mated by the water troughs. Mating "in sight of" these branches caused the offspring to be speckled and spotted, says the Bible. It was by this cleverness, the Bible claims in Genesis 30, that Jacob amassed his wealth and became a Patriarch of the Israelite people. The only problem is that that's not how it works. They only thought it did.

(30-10-2016 10:00 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  Atheists twist things in the bible to mean what they want

All of us do? That's just a fucked up thing to say, and I would call him out on his slander and prejudice. Seriously.

Most of us do our best to understand the verses both in their historical and linguistic context (one of the reason we spend more time arguing with Christians than with Jews about the meaning of the verses... the latter group also seems to actually care about honestly evaluating the original language/metaphors and social context of the verses), and point out the verses *as they are written* that conflict with many of the things that we are told by individual Christians.

Indeed, as you pointed out, the existence of so many Christian denominations, each with their own interpretation of the Bible's meaning, would seem to demonstrate that it is not atheists, but everyone on earth, who interpret the Bible as they see fit, for their own purposes, and arrive at different conclusions as to its meaning.

The real question is, "Why is the supposed Word of God™ subject to so many varied readings/interpretations, and why is it even possible that it's able to be manipulated in the way that you claim atheists do?"

(30-10-2016 10:00 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  Atheists are mostly athiest because they don't want to be held to a higher standard

Nothing pisses me off more than this claim. My father made this claim, right to my face. My reply rant was so epic, in listing the many ways in which I find the Bible's ideals to be far beneath my standard of morality, that he has literally never mentioned religion to me again... even when I visited his church with him, last time I went down to visit my folks.

But seriously-- to what "higher standard" do they refer? The higher standard of xenophobia, misogyny, patriarchal/hierarchal thinking, homophobia, censorship, religious intolerance, animal sacrifice blood-atonement rituals (later amended to vicarious atonement through human sacrifice), and the excusing (even commanding) genocide and slavery?

We protest the Bible's LOWER moral standards, and are horrified by their justification of ancient, barbaric prejudices and practices.

(30-10-2016 10:00 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  The prophecy of tyre is true

Such a random prophecy to pick... and as Jennybee pointed out, it's amazing how they can cherry-pick, in that regard.

(30-10-2016 10:00 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  Jewish people take prophecy out of context to show Jesus isn't the messiah

Yeah, what do the Jews know about their own scriptures and Messianic expectations? Totally with him on this one... it MUST be the Christians who get it right in determining whether their Messiah is actually qualified to be the Jewish Messiah. Rolleyes

(30-10-2016 10:00 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  So what responses do we have to this man?

We hold his feet to the fire on his dishonesty and slander. I would especially hold him to account for his claims of "atheists do _____", in which he blanket impugns the motives of everyone who doesn't accept his religious views, especially given that there are dozens of major Christian seminaries whose Christian scholars have the same views of the verses and mythologies of the Bible that we do, and yet remain Christian... so are these Christians just out to destroy Christianity by any dishonest, manipulative means, too, as he is essentially accusing us of doing?

Fuuuuuck THAT guy. Don't let him off the hook for saying such nasty things. Keep reminding him that Lying for Jesus™ is still lying.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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30-10-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: So remember when that teacher gave me a book to read..
The thing that got the higher standard going is I made a joke about how the book says it's our love of lust that pushes us towards athiesim. I was like really?? What about these scriptures and listed like 4, guess which books they were from. He replied with higher standard blah blah those are left in the bible as an example that you can do wrong and still be saved. Left in the bible? As what bragging rights that you tried to give your daughters up as sex slaves to save yourself?
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30-10-2016, 06:13 PM
RE: So remember when that teacher gave me a book to read..
OP, everything you need is over at Iron Chariots.
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30-10-2016, 06:26 PM
RE: So remember when that teacher gave me a book to read..
(30-10-2016 06:13 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  OP, everything you need is over at Iron Chariots.

What's that
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