So.....who loves capitalism?
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04-12-2012, 07:08 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2012 07:35 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
Ahhh ... the old bullshit Capitalism vs. Communism debate. A false choice between two equally unrealizable social systems. No such thing as pure Capitalism 'cause Adam Smith's invisible hand assumes perfectly rational agents looking to maximize their own gain. Yeah, that's fucking funny. Closest thing to Capitalism exists only in the black markets, drug trafficking, arms trafficking, sex trafficking, etc. No such thing as pure Communism 'cause Jesus disciples' assumption that everyone will buy into "From each according to their ability and to each according to their need" (that's right bitches, ain't Marx's idea, see Acts Chapters 4-5). Yeah, that's fucking funny. Closest thing to Communism exists only on a small scale in hippie communes and Hebrew kibbutzim.

Apart from the dictatorships, we're all socialists. All we're fucking fundamentally arguing about is the degree of socialism. The Europeans seem to get that, the hormonal teenager in the room that is the USA doesn't. In the USA, "socialist" is a dirty word for some ignorant teatarded reason.

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Sigh. ... In the words of my friend TrainWreck, "I hope you die peacefully."

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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04-12-2012, 07:17 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2012 07:56 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
I feel like my IQ drops a few points whenever I read this thread.


I and I, present a full-fledged argument in favor of whatever form of socialism/communism you hold to be the ideal. Enough beating around the mulberry bush and pointing your finger at capitalism as the woes of all humanity, stop assuming that we aren't aware of the pitfalls of capitalism, we are. OUTLINE your alternative, fuck capitalism and its woes, how would you go about fixing it? This is in the interest of fair and and honest debate. You've avoided defending your own position with arguments by using pure attack as a crutch. How will the system function, how will it avoid the pitfalls of totalitarianism, how will it sustain itself without having to rely on a capitalist economy, and how would you be able to discern if it has gone down the wrong path? Fuck this prancing around like a fairy that's got it figured all out. SHOW US YOUR ARGUMENT. Not "oh capitalism this capitalism that," show us more "I and I believes that this is the ideal form of government and economy and here is why it is better than capitalism."

Yeah, I agree that not all of those terrible things are necessarily synonymous with communism, but starvation, repression, censorship, authoritarian rule, massacres, and impoverishment HAVE OCCURRED UNDER SAID REGIMES, as well as the reestablishment of capitalist economies. The problem is that you ignore the fact that these faults have occurred under so called communist regimes and simply take out your pecker and start flopping it around whenever it is enacted by a capitalist government. That is special pleading. We are all aware of the faults of capitalist governments, but you have yet to provide a case for how you could avoid it by simply having a communist revolution. That isn't enough, as history has shown, since what starts off as a socialist government quickly turns into a totalitarian, repressive regime that is at fault for the same issues you accuse capitalism of. IT CAN HAPPEN. GETTING RID OF CAPITALISM AND REPLACING IT WITH A SO CALLED "COMMUNIST" SYSTEM HAS NOT PROVEN TO BE A GUARANTEE OF PROGRESSIVE, DEMOCRATIC DEVELOPMENT BY ITSELF. Give a blueprint for how this can be avoided in a socialist system, then we can discuss the merits, because the track record has more often than not led to the party becoming the new bourgeoisie. But enough of this dishonest, special pleading bullshit. Why is your specific form of communism the way to go?

If you can't perform the simple task of structuring an argument that supports your claims, then you are wasting everybody's time, hence why nobody has taken you seriously.

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04-12-2012, 08:02 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
Communist, liberal, capitalist, intellectual, religious......

Its not the system that is to blame.

Its us.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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04-12-2012, 08:11 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2012 08:26 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(04-12-2012 08:02 PM)bemore Wrote:  Communist, liberal, capitalist, intellectual, religious......

Its not the system that is to blame.

Its us.
I agree with you on that one, but I and I isn't on the same page on that one either.

Hence why I'm trying to force him into defending his position, whatever it truly is, since he has rarely ever explained why his specific form of government won't fall under the same problems that capitalist ones have. He has done nothing but special pleading and flat out attacks. He has had no mirror upon which to reflect his accusations back onto an analysis of his own ideology. It has solely been "governments under your ideology causes this and governments under mine don't." He hasn't given us any solid evidence, and when we point out that governments under his preferred ideology HAVE in fact done the same things, he ignores it, makes some baseless assertion to justify its invalidity, and continues the offensive on issues we are already aware of.

He hasn't been going, "yeah governments supposedly running under socialist ideology has led to this and here is how I will prevent it if I my preferred government were in power," it's been "no, that only happens under capitalism and capitalism only, all claims counter to mine are wrong because they are backed by capitalist propaganda." Utter dishonest, special pleading, and it has gone on for long enough.

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04-12-2012, 08:22 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(04-12-2012 05:47 PM)nach_in Wrote:  ad hominems... ad hominems everywhere! Tongue
It's what fuels the burners that keep the word spinning.
Ad hominems and dead babies.

Quote:the great economic powerhouse known as New Zealand, how could anyone overlook that one.

u jelly bro? Drinking Beverage

Quote:People all around the world are voting in leftist presidents.

Our last election we voted in a right wing government.

Drinking Beverage

Comon I&I, this is getting too easy. You're embarrassing yourself.

Quote:Communist, liberal, capitalist, intellectual, religious......



Its not the system that is to blame.



Its us.

Getting deep there bemore.

deep stuff bro, deep stuff.

Quote:He has had no mirror upon which to reflect his accusations back onto an
analysis of his own ideology. It has solely been "your ideology causes
this and mine doesn't."

Well he has to attribute his failed life to something.
Because obviously it's not his fault...

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04-12-2012, 08:29 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(04-12-2012 08:11 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(04-12-2012 08:02 PM)bemore Wrote:  Communist, liberal, capitalist, intellectual, religious......

Its not the system that is to blame.

Its us.
I agree with you on that one, but I and I isn't on the same page on that one either.

Hence why I'm trying to force him into defending his position, whatever it truly is, since he has rarely ever explained why his specific form of government won't fall under the same problems that capitalist ones have. He has done nothing but special pleading and flat out attacks. He has had no mirror upon which to reflect his accusations back onto an analysis of his own ideology. It has solely been "your ideology causes this and mine doesn't." He hasn't given us any solid evidence, and when we point out that governments under his preferred ideology HAVE in fact done the same things, he ignores it, makes some baseless assertion to justify its invalidity, and continues the offensive on issues we are already aware of.

He hasn't been going, "yeah socialist ideology has led to this and here is how I will prevent it if I my preferred government were in power," it's been "no, that only happens under capitalism and capitalism only, all claims counter to mine are wrong because they are backed by capitalist propaganda." Utter dishonest, special pleading, and it has gone on for long enough.
We all all guilty of our own opinions, we all live in our own unique personalised reality bubble.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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04-12-2012, 08:36 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(04-12-2012 08:29 PM)bemore Wrote:  
(04-12-2012 08:11 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  I agree with you on that one, but I and I isn't on the same page on that one either.

Hence why I'm trying to force him into defending his position, whatever it truly is, since he has rarely ever explained why his specific form of government won't fall under the same problems that capitalist ones have. He has done nothing but special pleading and flat out attacks. He has had no mirror upon which to reflect his accusations back onto an analysis of his own ideology. It has solely been "your ideology causes this and mine doesn't." He hasn't given us any solid evidence, and when we point out that governments under his preferred ideology HAVE in fact done the same things, he ignores it, makes some baseless assertion to justify its invalidity, and continues the offensive on issues we are already aware of.

He hasn't been going, "yeah socialist ideology has led to this and here is how I will prevent it if I my preferred government were in power," it's been "no, that only happens under capitalism and capitalism only, all claims counter to mine are wrong because they are backed by capitalist propaganda." Utter dishonest, special pleading, and it has gone on for long enough.
We all all guilty of our own opinions, we all live in our own unique personalised reality bubble.
He's also additionally guilty of falling prey to terrible logic and dishonest debating tactics, which makes it extremely unpleasant trying to talk to him. Not accusing you of being soft, but this is a forum full of individuals that have little tolerance for mockery of critical thinking, so I don't condone his style in any way, shape, or form. Doesn't mean he isn't entitled to believe whatever the fuck he wants, but it's painful to watch him ramble on about his bullshit. Reminds me of how the religious argue.

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04-12-2012, 08:43 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
Nah, at least the religious go away after a while.

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04-12-2012, 08:46 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
Hence another reason he is a nuisance.

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04-12-2012, 08:57 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(04-12-2012 07:17 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  I feel like my IQ drops a few points whenever I read this thread.


I and I, present a full-fledged argument in favor of whatever form of socialism/communism you hold to be the ideal. Enough beating around the mulberry bush and pointing your finger at capitalism as the woes of all humanity, stop assuming that we aren't aware of the pitfalls of capitalism, we are. OUTLINE your alternative, fuck capitalism and its woes, how would you go about fixing it? This is in the interest of fair and and honest debate. You've avoided defending your own position with arguments by using pure attack as a crutch. How will the system function, how will it avoid the pitfalls of totalitarianism, how will it sustain itself without having to rely on a capitalist economy, and how would you be able to discern if it has gone down the wrong path? Fuck this prancing around like a fairy that's got it figured all out. SHOW US YOUR ARGUMENT. Not "oh capitalism this capitalism that," show us more "I and I believes that this is the ideal form of government and economy and here is why it is better than capitalism."

Yeah, I agree that not all of those terrible things are necessarily synonymous with communism, but starvation, repression, censorship, authoritarian rule, massacres, and impoverishment HAVE OCCURRED UNDER SAID REGIMES, as well as the reestablishment of capitalist economies. The problem is that you ignore the fact that these faults have occurred under so called communist regimes and simply take out your pecker and start flopping it around whenever it is enacted by a capitalist government. That is special pleading. We are all aware of the faults of capitalist governments, but you have yet to provide a case for how you could avoid it by simply having a communist revolution. That isn't enough, as history has shown, since what starts off as a socialist government quickly turns into a totalitarian, repressive regime that is at fault for the same issues you accuse capitalism of. IT CAN HAPPEN. GETTING RID OF CAPITALISM AND REPLACING IT WITH A SO CALLED "COMMUNIST" SYSTEM HAS NOT PROVEN TO BE A GUARANTEE OF PROGRESSIVE, DEMOCRATIC DEVELOPMENT BY ITSELF. Give a blueprint for how this can be avoided in a socialist system, then we can discuss the merits, because the track record has more often than not led to the party becoming the new bourgeoisie. But enough of this dishonest, special pleading bullshit. Why is your specific form of communism the way to go?

If you can't perform the simple task of structuring an argument that supports your claims, then you are wasting everybody's time, hence why nobody has taken you seriously.
That's why I posted that Zizek video earlier, that I'm fairly confident nobody of you saw. It's not that easy to postulate an edulcorated alternative to our current system. This fantastic search for the perfect formula that will save us from all the evils of capitalism but without threatening our current way of life is absurd, you're asking (we all are actually) for a revolution without a revolution, and that's just silly [/endminirant]

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