So.....who loves capitalism?
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04-12-2012, 09:16 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(04-12-2012 08:57 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(04-12-2012 07:17 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  I feel like my IQ drops a few points whenever I read this thread.


I and I, present a full-fledged argument in favor of whatever form of socialism/communism you hold to be the ideal. Enough beating around the mulberry bush and pointing your finger at capitalism as the woes of all humanity, stop assuming that we aren't aware of the pitfalls of capitalism, we are. OUTLINE your alternative, fuck capitalism and its woes, how would you go about fixing it? This is in the interest of fair and and honest debate. You've avoided defending your own position with arguments by using pure attack as a crutch. How will the system function, how will it avoid the pitfalls of totalitarianism, how will it sustain itself without having to rely on a capitalist economy, and how would you be able to discern if it has gone down the wrong path? Fuck this prancing around like a fairy that's got it figured all out. SHOW US YOUR ARGUMENT. Not "oh capitalism this capitalism that," show us more "I and I believes that this is the ideal form of government and economy and here is why it is better than capitalism."

Yeah, I agree that not all of those terrible things are necessarily synonymous with communism, but starvation, repression, censorship, authoritarian rule, massacres, and impoverishment HAVE OCCURRED UNDER SAID REGIMES, as well as the reestablishment of capitalist economies. The problem is that you ignore the fact that these faults have occurred under so called communist regimes and simply take out your pecker and start flopping it around whenever it is enacted by a capitalist government. That is special pleading. We are all aware of the faults of capitalist governments, but you have yet to provide a case for how you could avoid it by simply having a communist revolution. That isn't enough, as history has shown, since what starts off as a socialist government quickly turns into a totalitarian, repressive regime that is at fault for the same issues you accuse capitalism of. IT CAN HAPPEN. GETTING RID OF CAPITALISM AND REPLACING IT WITH A SO CALLED "COMMUNIST" SYSTEM HAS NOT PROVEN TO BE A GUARANTEE OF PROGRESSIVE, DEMOCRATIC DEVELOPMENT BY ITSELF. Give a blueprint for how this can be avoided in a socialist system, then we can discuss the merits, because the track record has more often than not led to the party becoming the new bourgeoisie. But enough of this dishonest, special pleading bullshit. Why is your specific form of communism the way to go?

If you can't perform the simple task of structuring an argument that supports your claims, then you are wasting everybody's time, hence why nobody has taken you seriously.
That's why I posted that Zizek video earlier, that I'm fairly confident nobody of you saw. It's not that easy to postulate an edulcorated alternative to our current system. This fantastic search for the perfect formula that will save us from all the evils of capitalism but without threatening our current way of life is absurd, you're asking (we all are actually) for a revolution without a revolution, and that's just silly [/endminirant]
Was that directed at me or I and I? Huh

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04-12-2012, 10:07 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(04-12-2012 09:16 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(04-12-2012 08:57 PM)nach_in Wrote:  That's why I posted that Zizek video earlier, that I'm fairly confident nobody of you saw. It's not that easy to postulate an edulcorated alternative to our current system. This fantastic search for the perfect formula that will save us from all the evils of capitalism but without threatening our current way of life is absurd, you're asking (we all are actually) for a revolution without a revolution, and that's just silly [/endminirant]
Was that directed at me or I and I? Huh
Everyone, but I quoted you because your words triggered my post, I didn't meant anything in particular for you Drinking Beverage

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04-12-2012, 10:12 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2012 10:57 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
K, well I don't actually see revolution as a necessarily bad thing, in fact in certain circumstances it is a necessity. Nor do I see communistic theory as inherently negative (but I don't see it as implementable in its PUREST form due to the darker side of human nature, elements of the socialist aspect are quite achievable though). What irritates me is I and I's dishonest debating style. Some of my favorite reads have been from Marxist thinkers, but this clown is a terrible representative on socialist thought, if what he is doing can even be called that.

So yeah, just to be clear.

1. I am not lambasting the entire political branch of communism as a whole nor am I stating that I wish for capitalism to stay the same way it is now.
2. I am irked only by I and I's excessively special pleading based arguments.

He has been using special pleading since he has gotten here, he hasn't let up, and he hasn't provided sufficient defensive arguments for his form of communism (which is Stalinistic "communism" as far as I can tell). He has only done attack after attack after attack without realizing we are actually sometimes on the same page with him on what he is attacking, but not with his implied solution. Instead of then defending his implied solution (Stalinistic communism) he continues attacking the same shit we already addressed. He has done nothing but present a one-sided argument. Everybody else wants to make it a two-sided argument and he has refused this. He's turned this section of the forum into his personal latrine.

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04-12-2012, 11:09 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(04-12-2012 08:57 PM)nach_in Wrote:  That's why I posted that Zizek video earlier, that I'm fairly confident nobody of you saw. It's not that easy to postulate an edulcorated alternative to our current system. This fantastic search for the perfect formula that will save us from all the evils of capitalism but without threatening our current way of life is absurd, you're asking (we all are actually) for a revolution without a revolution, and that's just silly [/endminirant]
I can't watch vids at the moment Drinking Beverage

I disagree though. The way to 'save ourselves from the evils of capitalism' isn't to sweep the board clean and start from 0 again, it's to tweak the current system we have to mitigate the evils that we can see, without throwing away the *good* bits. By doing it gradually and trying different things to see what works we avoid the risk associated with revolution.
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05-12-2012, 02:13 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(04-12-2012 08:11 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(04-12-2012 08:02 PM)bemore Wrote:  Communist, liberal, capitalist, intellectual, religious......

Its not the system that is to blame.

Its us.
I agree with you on that one, but I and I isn't on the same page on that one either.

Hence why I'm trying to force him into defending his position, whatever it truly is, since he has rarely ever explained why his specific form of government won't fall under the same problems that capitalist ones have. He has done nothing but special pleading and flat out attacks. He has had no mirror upon which to reflect his accusations back onto an analysis of his own ideology. It has solely been "governments under your ideology causes this and governments under mine don't." He hasn't given us any solid evidence, and when we point out that governments under his preferred ideology HAVE in fact done the same things, he ignores it, makes some baseless assertion to justify its invalidity, and continues the offensive on issues we are already aware of.

He hasn't been going, "yeah governments supposedly running under socialist ideology has led to this and here is how I will prevent it if I my preferred government were in power," it's been "no, that only happens under capitalism and capitalism only, all claims counter to mine are wrong because they are backed by capitalist propaganda." Utter dishonest, special pleading, and it has gone on for long enough.
According to everyone here ALL communist countries are the spawn of evil, so why in the fuck would I want to have a decent conversation? I just used the same logic you guys use. All capitlaist countries are the spawn of evil and nothing good can come out of them.

Now if you are ready to get that bullshit propaganda out of your head about communism and have a decent conversation on what communism is then lets do it. The problem is, most people know nothing of Communism but what they are told. Here is an example: Most people believe that in communist countries there aren't any elections for people to choose their leaders, this is total bullshit, there have been several elected marxists that were overthrown by the U.S. and all communist countries have elections to choose various kinds of leaders for various positions.
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05-12-2012, 02:23 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 02:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  According to everyone here ALL communist countries are the spawn of evil, so why in the fuck would I want to have a decent conversation? I just used the same logic you guys use. All capitlaist countries are the spawn of evil and nothing good can come out of them.

Now if you are ready to get that bullshit propaganda out of your head about communism and have a decent conversation on what communism is then lets do it. The problem is, most people know nothing of Communism but what they are told. Here is an example: Most people believe that in communist countries there aren't any elections for people to choose their leaders, this is total bullshit, there have been several elected marxists that were overthrown by the U.S. and all communist countries have elections to choose various kinds of leaders for various positions.
Care to provide evidence for your broad overgeneralizations? How do you know what "most" people know about Communism? How do you know what "most" people believe Communism is?

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05-12-2012, 02:30 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 02:23 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(05-12-2012 02:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  According to everyone here ALL communist countries are the spawn of evil, so why in the fuck would I want to have a decent conversation? I just used the same logic you guys use. All capitlaist countries are the spawn of evil and nothing good can come out of them.

Now if you are ready to get that bullshit propaganda out of your head about communism and have a decent conversation on what communism is then lets do it. The problem is, most people know nothing of Communism but what they are told. Here is an example: Most people believe that in communist countries there aren't any elections for people to choose their leaders, this is total bullshit, there have been several elected marxists that were overthrown by the U.S. and all communist countries have elections to choose various kinds of leaders for various positions.
Care to provide evidence for your broad overgeneralizations? How do you know what "most" people know about Communism? How do you know what "most" people believe Communism is?
Have you seen the comments about communism on this forum? It's like watching a mash up of 1950's anti-communist propaganda shorts.
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05-12-2012, 02:40 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 02:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  The problem is, most people know nothing of Communism but what they are told.


Does your own statement not apply to yourself???

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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05-12-2012, 02:46 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 02:40 AM)bemore Wrote:  
(05-12-2012 02:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  The problem is, most people know nothing of Communism but what they are told.


Does your own statement not apply to yourself???
no it doesn't. I guarantee I have read more Marx and Lenin and books about capitalism and communism than anyone here.

A few people on here told me "you know capitalism is a free market right" they are so ignorant to how capitalism works they actually believe it's a "free" market. I will find those quotes if you don't believe me.
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05-12-2012, 03:05 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 02:46 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(05-12-2012 02:40 AM)bemore Wrote:  Does your own statement not apply to yourself???
no it doesn't. I guarantee I have read more Marx and Lenin and books about capitalism and communism than anyone here.

A few people on here told me "you know capitalism is a free market right" they are so ignorant to how capitalism works they actually believe it's a "free" market. I will find those quotes if you don't believe me.
I have read the thread bro I have seen the quotes.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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