So.....who loves capitalism?
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07-12-2012, 04:26 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(07-12-2012 04:09 PM)I and I Wrote:  What if a country and it's people decided to not deal with any corporation at all and had the resources to trade with and deal with other nations with similar goals eventually creating a group of nations that are not even dependent on other capitalist nations? Would you support that?
If they aren't breaking any international laws or treaties by doing so, sure.

(07-12-2012 04:09 PM)I and I Wrote:  Informing the public about problems of current economic crises isn't as simple as it sounds. You have to have a media that isn't owned by corporations otherwise there won't be any detailed analysis on any mainstream news of the fundamental problems of crisis in capitalism. The only way it is dealt with in the media is the old "just a few bad apples" explanation with no real discussion on the economic problems on any deep level. The people do care or don't care about what they are told to care about by the media (yes people are that stupid). If all they see are commercials, sitcoms and reality shows then of course they aren't going to care about anything that makes them think.
Indeed, it is not a simple task. Fortunately, there are alternatives to the mainstream media, for example non-governmental organizations such as amnesty international. Additionally, those who are willing to stand up and protest against something actively are usually younger people; and those tend to get their information on the Internet rather than from watching TV.

(07-12-2012 04:09 PM)I and I Wrote:  Voting by ballot box isn't impossible, it is impossible and meaningless when done on a large scale as in many capitalist western countries. Countries like Cuba have the opposite strategy, the people don't vote who the president is but they get to vote for many other smaller leaders locally more so than in most western country. On a small scale like that voting does work.
I wasn't suggesting that it's logistically impossible because of the sheer number of people involved, but because the voting would have to take place on a global scale. After all, multinational corporations have the biggest influence on economics.

That reminds me, what are you talking about when you say that "people" who have a big influence on economics should be elected? I feel like we're talking about two different things.

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07-12-2012, 04:46 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2012 12:20 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(07-12-2012 03:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  Do you believe that anti-union efforts by rightwing politicians and corporations have anything to do with decreasing labor unions in the U.S.? Outside of the U.S. many capitalist countries have jailed and assassinated and targeted labor leaders, how does this translate to the "it's all just people choosing not to join" theory. Have you studied any kind of history at all?

What conservative politicians believe is their own personal philosophy. To me, it is inconsequential because I never vote, nor support conservative. I would also like you to provide relatively unbiased, neutral evidence concerning the government-corporate assassinations of such leaders. The attendance of the unions is due to the lack of labor education in the United States, the increase in standard of living, and welfare.

(07-12-2012 03:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  How is ones educations experience (as for attending college and getting degrees) ENTIRELY up to an individual? I don't know what country you live in, but most strict capitalist economies don't have free education beyond highschool so any further school experience beyond that is not ENTIRELY dependent on an individual choice, because that thing called money which if you don't have enough of, then you aren't going to school. Your views on capitalism are so script like and so simplistic I wonder if you actually believe what you are saying, it is really amazing that someone can have these thoughts in their head and genuinely believe them.

Here is where I am able to present to you the differences between the various Capitalistic philosophies in effect today. I currently live in Germany, where university is entirely free, but the nation also has a mixed capitalist economy. It is also the largest European economy, and one of the strongest global economic powers. The constraint in the United States is money, and I am well aware of this. That is why I support the president's propose education reforms, lowering the rates with government subsidies. Again, you are against free market crony capitalism. I am not for that either, I am for mixed market social capitalism.

(07-12-2012 03:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  And how is a job selection ones choice? Please don't tell me you are one of those dumbasses who thinks that people that live in poverty and work for low wages in capitalist countries do it because they want to and chose that profession. Do you really believe that all of an individuals failures and successes in capitalist is ENTIRELY (100 percent) due to their individual actions? yes or no. I really would like an answer to this to see what type of person I am dealing with here.

You are able to select your career, change jobs accordingly, and seize opportunities within that career. The choice is up to you. The environment, nature, and variety of these choices is not.

(07-12-2012 03:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  And can you give me a time in history when the government wasn't used by the capitalist class to maintain and enhance capitalism?

Which government? Consider
Can you tell me what the function of a government is?

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08-12-2012, 06:55 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
Bump

Because that earmuffs cunt (ahem) bumped a ton of old threads.

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08-12-2012, 06:01 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(07-12-2012 04:26 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-12-2012 04:09 PM)I and I Wrote:  What if a country and it's people decided to not deal with any corporation at all and had the resources to trade with and deal with other nations with similar goals eventually creating a group of nations that are not even dependent on other capitalist nations? Would you support that?
If they aren't breaking any international laws or treaties by doing so, sure.

(07-12-2012 04:09 PM)I and I Wrote:  Informing the public about problems of current economic crises isn't as simple as it sounds. You have to have a media that isn't owned by corporations otherwise there won't be any detailed analysis on any mainstream news of the fundamental problems of crisis in capitalism. The only way it is dealt with in the media is the old "just a few bad apples" explanation with no real discussion on the economic problems on any deep level. The people do care or don't care about what they are told to care about by the media (yes people are that stupid). If all they see are commercials, sitcoms and reality shows then of course they aren't going to care about anything that makes them think.
Indeed, it is not a simple task. Fortunately, there are alternatives to the mainstream media, for example non-governmental organizations such as amnesty international. Additionally, those who are willing to stand up and protest against something actively are usually younger people; and those tend to get their information on the Internet rather than from watching TV.

(07-12-2012 04:09 PM)I and I Wrote:  Voting by ballot box isn't impossible, it is impossible and meaningless when done on a large scale as in many capitalist western countries. Countries like Cuba have the opposite strategy, the people don't vote who the president is but they get to vote for many other smaller leaders locally more so than in most western country. On a small scale like that voting does work.
I wasn't suggesting that it's logistically impossible because of the sheer number of people involved, but because the voting would have to take place on a global scale. After all, multinational corporations have the biggest influence on economics.

That reminds me, what are you talking about when you say that "people" who have a big influence on economics should be elected? I feel like we're talking about two different things.
It isn't against any international law to claim territory of a country to be sovereign to that countries government, that includes land and resources that are in that specific country, like when communist leaders declare resources of the country to be property of that country as opposed to being owned by foreign corporations, this is called nationalization of property and there is nothing illegal about it. Would you be against this? And on a broader scale laws, like the ones used under capitalism are man made, changed by men and ended by men, any and all economic/political systems are like this. On a philosophical note, there is nothing morally wrong with capitalism or communism so if people don't want capitalism then it's their choice, regardless of what other countries or capitalist investors think.

Speaking of breaking treaties there is a wonderful gem of capitalist history known as Haiti. Did you know that when the slave revolt in Haiti during the 1800's happened, the slaves took control of the nation and formed their own government. Guess what France did, France declared the new nation to owe debt to France for the resources and slaves that France owned. The interest on this debt built up over the years and the debt for the slave revolt and forming a new nation wasn't paid off until the 1970's. Can you really say it would have been wrong for the new government of Haiti just to tell France to go fuck themselves with the debt and not pay?

And buying or not buying isn't a free choice, at least not the more free kind of choice one would desire. If most things are owned by a few corporations that decide what to make and what to put in food, it isn't really a free choice if the only alternative is the other big corporation. Also, laws and treaties for trading goods internationally aren't even decided by the people, look at NAFTA.
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08-12-2012, 06:22 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(07-12-2012 04:46 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(07-12-2012 03:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  Do you believe that anti-union efforts by rightwing politicians and corporations have anything to do with decreasing labor unions in the U.S.? Outside of the U.S. many capitalist countries have jailed and assassinated and targeted labor leaders, how does this translate to the "it's all just people choosing not to join" theory. Have you studied any kind of history at all?

What conservative politicians believe is their own personal philosophy. To me, it is inconsequential because I never vote, nor support conservative. I would also like you to provide relatively unbiased, neutral evidence concerning the government-corporate assassinations of such leaders. The attendance of the unions is due to the lack of labor education in the United States, the increase in standard of living, and welfare.

(07-12-2012 03:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  How is ones educations experience (as for attending college and getting degrees) ENTIRELY up to an individual? I don't know what country you live in, but most strict capitalist economies don't have free education beyond highschool so any further school experience beyond that is not ENTIRELY dependent on an individual choice, because that thing called money which if you don't have enough of, then you aren't going to school. Your views on capitalism are so script like and so simplistic I wonder if you actually believe what you are saying, it is really amazing that someone can have these thoughts in their head and genuinely believe them.

Here is where I am able to present to you the differences between the various Capitalistic philosophies in effect today. I currently live in Germany, where university is entirely free, but the nation also has a mixed capitalist economy. It is also the largest European economy, and one of the strongest global economic powers. The constraint in the United States is money, and I am well aware of this. That is why I support the president's propose education reforms, lowering the rates with government subsidies. Again, you are against free market crony capitalism. I am not for that either, I am for mixed market social capitalism.

(07-12-2012 03:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  And how is a job selection ones choice? Please don't tell me you are one of those dumbasses who thinks that people that live in poverty and work for low wages in capitalist countries do it because they want to and chose that profession. Do you really believe that all of an individuals failures and successes in capitalist is ENTIRELY (100 percent) due to their individual actions? yes or no. I really would like an answer to this to see what type of person I am dealing with here.

You are able to select your career, change jobs accordingly, and seize opportunities within that career. The choice is up to you. The environment, nature, and variety of these choices is not.

(07-12-2012 03:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  And can you give me a time in history when the government wasn't used by the capitalist class to maintain and enhance capitalism?

Which government? Consider
Can you tell me what the function of a government is?
Pick any capitalist government and tell me of one that wasn't a tool for the corporations to maintain control. I have yet to see any historical evidence that a government under a capitalist system and the corporations/business owners were separate entities. Have you ever looked up most presidents/leaders under capitalism in what their previous jobs were?

As for governments, I am sure we can agree that capitalist governments are horrible.

Assassination of/jailing/killing of union and labor leaders has been done in many capitalist countries.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200412--.htm again this IS the government under capitalism serving as a tool to help capitalists maintain power.

And here is a history of government/corporate interests actively seeking to diminish the power of labor unions in the U.S. over the past decades. To say that decreasing union membership is solely from individual choice wouldn't be true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...ted_States

What you call crony capitalism I call capitalism. The things that you consider to be crony are things that historically are what makes capitalism the economic system that it is.

Anti-trust laws didn't work in the U.S. They only work for a certain amount of time and are not permanent because of the nature of capitalism and competition. Capitalism always will be a system where the top dog has to and will do anything for a profit, and in order to do this they need to own more than the next guy, which will always lead to a few people owning most of the shit.

The function of a government under capitalism is to maintain supremacy of capitalist class over the working class, the purpose of a government in a communist system is to maintain the power of the working class.

And in the U.S. and many capitalist countries education isn't a top priority at all, and many capitalist countries don't provide free college. Have you ever looked at the education system in Cuba vs other latin american nations?
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08-12-2012, 06:31 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(08-12-2012 06:01 PM)I and I Wrote:  It isn't against any international law to claim territory of a country to be sovereign to that countries government, that includes land and resources that are in that specific country, like when communist leaders declare resources of the country to be property of that country as opposed to being owned by foreign corporations, this is called nationalization of property and there is nothing illegal about it. Would you be against this? And on a broader scale laws, like the ones used under capitalism are man made, changed by men and ended by men, any and all economic/political systems are like this. On a philosophical note, there is nothing morally wrong with capitalism or communism so if people don't want capitalism then it's their choice, regardless of what other countries or capitalist investors think.
Same answer. If they aren't breaking any laws or treaties, I don't mind them doing it.

(08-12-2012 06:01 PM)I and I Wrote:  Speaking of breaking treaties there is a wonderful gem of capitalist history known as Haiti. Did you know that when the slave revolt in Haiti during the 1800's happened, the slaves took control of the nation and formed their own government. Guess what France did, France declared the new nation to owe debt to France for the resources and slaves that France owned. The interest on this debt built up over the years and the debt for the slave revolt and forming a new nation wasn't paid off until the 1970's. Can you really say it would have been wrong for the new government of Haiti just to tell France to go fuck themselves with the debt and not pay?
Are you asking me whether or not it would have been morally wrong?

(08-12-2012 06:01 PM)I and I Wrote:  And buying or not buying isn't a free choice, at least not the more free kind of choice one would desire. If most things are owned by a few corporations that decide what to make and what to put in food, it isn't really a free choice if the only alternative is the other big corporation.
Since there are plenty of (local) alternatives to the major companies in the food industry, you actually do have a free choice. And not only that, because you can still buy products from the corporations that do not violate human rights and environmental laws.

(08-12-2012 06:01 PM)I and I Wrote:  Also, laws and treaties for trading goods internationally aren't even decided by the people, look at NAFTA.
Aside from the fact that I've never said otherwise, why should international laws and treaties regarding the trading of goods be decided by people who have no expertise or education in economics whatsoever?

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08-12-2012, 09:23 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(08-12-2012 06:31 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 06:01 PM)I and I Wrote:  It isn't against any international law to claim territory of a country to be sovereign to that countries government, that includes land and resources that are in that specific country, like when communist leaders declare resources of the country to be property of that country as opposed to being owned by foreign corporations, this is called nationalization of property and there is nothing illegal about it. Would you be against this? And on a broader scale laws, like the ones used under capitalism are man made, changed by men and ended by men, any and all economic/political systems are like this. On a philosophical note, there is nothing morally wrong with capitalism or communism so if people don't want capitalism then it's their choice, regardless of what other countries or capitalist investors think.
Same answer. If they aren't breaking any laws or treaties, I don't mind them doing it.

(08-12-2012 06:01 PM)I and I Wrote:  Speaking of breaking treaties there is a wonderful gem of capitalist history known as Haiti. Did you know that when the slave revolt in Haiti during the 1800's happened, the slaves took control of the nation and formed their own government. Guess what France did, France declared the new nation to owe debt to France for the resources and slaves that France owned. The interest on this debt built up over the years and the debt for the slave revolt and forming a new nation wasn't paid off until the 1970's. Can you really say it would have been wrong for the new government of Haiti just to tell France to go fuck themselves with the debt and not pay?
Are you asking me whether or not it would have been morally wrong?

(08-12-2012 06:01 PM)I and I Wrote:  And buying or not buying isn't a free choice, at least not the more free kind of choice one would desire. If most things are owned by a few corporations that decide what to make and what to put in food, it isn't really a free choice if the only alternative is the other big corporation.
Since there are plenty of (local) alternatives to the major companies in the food industry, you actually do have a free choice. And not only that, because you can still buy products from the corporations that do not violate human rights and environmental laws.

(08-12-2012 06:01 PM)I and I Wrote:  Also, laws and treaties for trading goods internationally aren't even decided by the people, look at NAFTA.
Aside from the fact that I've never said otherwise, why should international laws and treaties regarding the trading of goods be decided by people who have no expertise or education in economics whatsoever?
Why should a handful of corporations who aren't even working together but competing against each other make all the rules for what a society needs when they don't know how to run a society either?

Under capitalism, the choices made a by a few corporate execs can have a big impact on society good or bad, why shouldn't the people have a say in who they want making these big decisions?

As of lately they are doing a nice job with the good economy and all Rolleyes
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08-12-2012, 09:31 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(08-12-2012 09:23 PM)I and I Wrote:  Why should a handful of corporations who aren't even working together but competing against each other make all the rules for what a society needs when they don't know how to run a society either?
Care to elaborate on this? Corporations don't make any rules regarding the needs of a society, citizens who form a society do so by buying products they require.

(08-12-2012 09:23 PM)I and I Wrote:  Under capitalism, the choices made a by a few corporate execs can have a big impact on society good or bad, why shouldn't the people have a say in who they want making these big decisions?
They should and they do.

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08-12-2012, 10:08 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(08-12-2012 06:22 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(07-12-2012 04:46 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  What conservative politicians believe is their own personal philosophy. To me, it is inconsequential because I never vote, nor support conservative. I would also like you to provide relatively unbiased, neutral evidence concerning the government-corporate assassinations of such leaders. The attendance of the unions is due to the lack of labor education in the United States, the increase in standard of living, and welfare.


Here is where I am able to present to you the differences between the various Capitalistic philosophies in effect today. I currently live in Germany, where university is entirely free, but the nation also has a mixed capitalist economy. It is also the largest European economy, and one of the strongest global economic powers. The constraint in the United States is money, and I am well aware of this. That is why I support the president's propose education reforms, lowering the rates with government subsidies. Again, you are against free market crony capitalism. I am not for that either, I am for mixed market social capitalism.


You are able to select your career, change jobs accordingly, and seize opportunities within that career. The choice is up to you. The environment, nature, and variety of these choices is not.


Which government? Consider
Can you tell me what the function of a government is?
Pick any capitalist government and tell me of one that wasn't a tool for the corporations to maintain control. I have yet to see any historical evidence that a government under a capitalist system and the corporations/business owners were separate entities. Have you ever looked up most presidents/leaders under capitalism in what their previous jobs were?

As for governments, I am sure we can agree that capitalist governments are horrible.

Assassination of/jailing/killing of union and labor leaders has been done in many capitalist countries.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200412--.htm again this IS the government under capitalism serving as a tool to help capitalists maintain power.

And here is a history of government/corporate interests actively seeking to diminish the power of labor unions in the U.S. over the past decades. To say that decreasing union membership is solely from individual choice wouldn't be true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...ted_States

What you call crony capitalism I call capitalism. The things that you consider to be crony are things that historically are what makes capitalism the economic system that it is.

Anti-trust laws didn't work in the U.S. They only work for a certain amount of time and are not permanent because of the nature of capitalism and competition. Capitalism always will be a system where the top dog has to and will do anything for a profit, and in order to do this they need to own more than the next guy, which will always lead to a few people owning most of the shit.

The function of a government under capitalism is to maintain supremacy of capitalist class over the working class, the purpose of a government in a communist system is to maintain the power of the working class.

And in the U.S. and many capitalist countries education isn't a top priority at all, and many capitalist countries don't provide free college. Have you ever looked at the education system in Cuba vs other latin american nations?
And you still continue to conflate economic systems and government systems. Are you just stupid?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-12-2012, 03:01 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(08-12-2012 06:22 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(07-12-2012 04:46 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  What conservative politicians believe is their own personal philosophy. To me, it is inconsequential because I never vote, nor support conservative. I would also like you to provide relatively unbiased, neutral evidence concerning the government-corporate assassinations of such leaders. The attendance of the unions is due to the lack of labor education in the United States, the increase in standard of living, and welfare.


Here is where I am able to present to you the differences between the various Capitalistic philosophies in effect today. I currently live in Germany, where university is entirely free, but the nation also has a mixed capitalist economy. It is also the largest European economy, and one of the strongest global economic powers. The constraint in the United States is money, and I am well aware of this. That is why I support the president's propose education reforms, lowering the rates with government subsidies. Again, you are against free market crony capitalism. I am not for that either, I am for mixed market social capitalism.


You are able to select your career, change jobs accordingly, and seize opportunities within that career. The choice is up to you. The environment, nature, and variety of these choices is not.


Which government? Consider
Can you tell me what the function of a government is?
Pick any capitalist government and tell me of one that wasn't a tool for the corporations to maintain control. I have yet to see any historical evidence that a government under a capitalist system and the corporations/business owners were separate entities. Have you ever looked up most presidents/leaders under capitalism in what their previous jobs were?

As for governments, I am sure we can agree that capitalist governments are horrible.

Assassination of/jailing/killing of union and labor leaders has been done in many capitalist countries.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200412--.htm again this IS the government under capitalism serving as a tool to help capitalists maintain power.

And here is a history of government/corporate interests actively seeking to diminish the power of labor unions in the U.S. over the past decades. To say that decreasing union membership is solely from individual choice wouldn't be true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...ted_States

What you call crony capitalism I call capitalism. The things that you consider to be crony are things that historically are what makes capitalism the economic system that it is.

Anti-trust laws didn't work in the U.S. They only work for a certain amount of time and are not permanent because of the nature of capitalism and competition. Capitalism always will be a system where the top dog has to and will do anything for a profit, and in order to do this they need to own more than the next guy, which will always lead to a few people owning most of the shit.

The function of a government under capitalism is to maintain supremacy of capitalist class over the working class, the purpose of a government in a communist system is to maintain the power of the working class.

And in the U.S. and many capitalist countries education isn't a top priority at all, and many capitalist countries don't provide free college. Have you ever looked at the education system in Cuba vs other latin american nations?
Pick any social capitalist country. Most of the European Union. The government is in firm control of its policies, and does an efficient job of keeping the country's companies in its grasp. However, I have yet to argue that a capitalist economic system does not effect the government. It would be a fools errand to argue that any economy does not control the government.

There is no such thing as a capitalist government.

I asked for a reliable source of information.

They have not done anything for over a half a century. You'd know that if you bothered to read your own citation.

I don't care if you incorrectly label things or not. You can stare at a blue chair and call it red, but it does not make it red.

Anti-trust laws have been extremely successful. See the anti-trust court suit for IDM and Microsoft just a few years ago.

The function under crony capitalism is to advance the agenda of corporations. The function of a government with mixed market social capitalism is to regulate it. It seems to me like you are just figuring out how the world works.

Yes, I have. Cuba's standard of living is far worse than most other South American countries.

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