So.....who loves capitalism?

[I and I]

(18-11-2012 07:31 PM)Styrofoam02 Wrote:  You can look at East Berlin and compare it to West Berlin and just see which side was better off. The wall wasn't built to keep people out, it was built to keep people IN....

You're dangerously close to using the same arguments that homeopaths use. "Think of how bad they would be without their communist regimes" but this is... just silly. China and Russia both were basically feudal, Kings, lords, serfs. This is not a western democracy with a free market, and yet you imply that this was the case before the revolutions there. And while they may be better off now than under the original Chinese Emperors... that doesn't mean that this is the clear winner. Modern China, even though it looks great on the eastern shores, is full of rampant poverty. Just go to western regions of China if you want to see the real picture. Rule of Law is sorely absent in China; organ harvesting, Internet Censorship and human rights abuses are the order of the day. It is said that there is little change other than the fact that Emperor has been replaced by Communist Party of China, people being slaves to Communist Party.
[/font]
[font=Arial]

your crocodile tears about labor are laughable considering that you gladly use products that are made with parts that were made by slave like labor in your capitalist countries. Obviously you aren't that concerned about it. Wages are getting worse in the U.S. due to inflation and over the past decades corporations have systematically destroyed labor unions.

Next

"people being slaves to the communist party" The U.S. locks out third party candidates from debating on tv, even most industrialized countries don't do this. Again, obviously you aren't that concerned about the lack of political diversity.

The issue of censorship is also a funny one, you see, in capitalist countries the GOVERNMENT is not allowed to censor but the powerful corporations are allowed to censor and do so all the time. Remember during the Iraq war U.S. cable companies refused to have arab cable channels on their list of channels? There are countless stories of issues not discussed due to pressure from corporations. Again, you obviously aren't concerned about censorship since you are ok with it if it is the corporations doing the censoring.


Next

[earmuffs]

I&I there's a thing called the internet, perhaps you've herd of it?

Censorship? what's that?

I can see on the news that some celebrity has been in court but had their name suppressed (by the court, not censorship from the media), I can then go on the internet and in 2minutes have the name of that celebrity.

Agggggesss ago there was a video of Osama beheading some guy. The news outlets didn't show it but it was all over the internet.
I can go on youtube and find that video of the US gunship pilot begging to mow down those people (including children) etc...
Nothing is censored anymore. You don't even need to look that hard.

But places like China this is heavily regulated (internet) and you'd be hard pressed to find things the government doesn't want you to see.


Plus it costs money to run a TV station and how many people are going to want to advertise on an Arab station while the war had just started?
Not to mention viewership would have been very poor.


Try again.

[Tartarus Sauce]

(18-11-2012 07:51 PM)I and I Wrote:  So the countries that are well off and are self proclaimed communist/socialist, you dismiss their success simply by saying they aren't real communist. They aren't communist to who? you?

They aren't communist yet by the very definition of communism. Until they fully eliminate class based society, calling the country communist is both inaccurate and an empty gesture.

Yeah, they've had tremendous successes in some of those countries, but a lot of it was done under the same exploitative, oppressive, and misguided measures that befalls capitalism as well.The party bastardized everything to shit until they became the new face of the oppressors, hence the same shit starts all over again.

You can believe about all that "everything you believe is false since capitalism has its greasy hands somewhere in there," (although I have a hard time seeing how capitalism has its hand in the many Marxist theorists that don't have the same rose-colored glasses you do when it comes to the possibility of the party developing a bourgeois character and self-serving tendencies), but I just see us as being two pawns in the same game. The only difference is that under my preferred form of government, I KNOW when its trying to fuck me up the ass. Meanwhile, under your preferred government, you would be balls deep under their command, a mindless drone. If you are convinced that Stalin was a beneficial individual in the grand scheme of things, I'm thoroughly convinced you could willingly make a defense of just about anybody.

Trust me, I wish communism was a viable option. It's a far better theory on paper than capitalism in terms of equality, ethicality, and integrity
In practice though...

Carry on now. I'm sure I'm only the 99,000th capitalist drone to criticize your irreproachable, rock-solid arguments.

[I and I]

(18-11-2012 08:35 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I&I there's a thing called the internet, perhaps you've herd of it?

Censorship? what's that?

I can see on the news that some celebrity has been in court but had their name suppressed (by the court, not censorship from the media), I can then go on the internet and in 2minutes have the name of that celebrity.

Agggggesss ago there was a video of Osama beheading some guy. The news outlets didn't show it but it was all over the internet.
I can go on youtube and find that video of the US gunship pilot begging to mow down those people (including children) etc...
Nothing is censored anymore. You don't even need to look that hard.

But places like China this is heavily regulated (internet) and you'd be hard pressed to find things the government doesn't want you to see.


Plus it costs money to run a TV station and how many people are going to want to advertise on an Arab station while the war had just started?
Not to mention viewership would have been very poor.


Try again.

Now you are being completely stupid

Corporations censor shit all the time. You see dumbass, most people worship and jack off to mainstream media so yes what they say, how they say it, what they don't say, the list of sources etc etc all have an affect on how perceptions are shaped. Of course you are going to be stupid again and deny this.

Did you hear about this?
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/19/ex...war-crime/

Oh that's right, you didn't hear about it when it happened, because it was way after and on one of the billions of websites and not a major news issue.

Are you retarded and deny corporations censor shit or do you want more examples?

[I and I]

(18-11-2012 08:41 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  

(18-11-2012 07:51 PM)I and I Wrote:  So the countries that are well off and are self proclaimed communist/socialist, you dismiss their success simply by saying they aren't real communist. They aren't communist to who? you?

They aren't communist yet by the very definition of communism. Until they fully eliminate class based society, calling the country communist is both inaccurate and an empty gesture.

Yeah, they've had tremendous successes in some of those countries, but a lot of it was done under the same exploitative, oppressive, and misguided measures that befalls capitalism as well.The party bastardized everything to shit until they became the new face of the oppressors, hence the same shit starts all over again.

You can believe about all that "everything you believe is false since capitalism has its greasy hands somewhere in there," (although I have a hard time seeing how capitalism has its hand in the many Marxist theorists that don't have the same rose-colored glasses you do when it comes to the possibility of the party developing a bourgeois character and self-serving tendencies), but I just see us as being two pawns in the same game. The only difference is that under my preferred form of government, I KNOW when its trying to fuck me up the ass, but I can decide whether I want just the tip penetrating or the whole shaft. Meanwhile, under your preferred government, you would be balls deep under their command, a mindless drone. If you are convinced that Stalin was a beneficial individual in the grand scheme of things, I'm thoroughly convinced you could willingly make a defense of just about anybody.

Trust me, I wish communism was a viable option. It's a far better theory on paper than capitalism in terms of equality, ethicality, and integrity
In practice though...

Carry on now. I'm sure I'm only the 99,000th capitalist drone to criticize your irreproachable, rock-solid arguments.

Right....and a nation of full of junk food eating, reality show watching buffoons who worry more about who snookie is banging this month....no they aren't mindless drones at all. You may care about how your government is screwing you, but most americans don't and perfectly ok with their shitty living situations, shitty wages, political system ran by corporations and the countless other bullshit....yes this makes them mindless drones.

Watch the drones the day after thanksgiving and tell me that is what freedom is all about. The next waffle iron?

So according to you there has never been a communist system?

[earmuffs]

(18-11-2012 08:49 PM)I and I Wrote:  

(18-11-2012 08:35 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I&I there's a thing called the internet, perhaps you've herd of it?

Censorship? what's that?

I can see on the news that some celebrity has been in court but had their name suppressed (by the court, not censorship from the media), I can then go on the internet and in 2minutes have the name of that celebrity.

Agggggesss ago there was a video of Osama beheading some guy. The news outlets didn't show it but it was all over the internet.
I can go on youtube and find that video of the US gunship pilot begging to mow down those people (including children) etc...
Nothing is censored anymore. You don't even need to look that hard.

But places like China this is heavily regulated (internet) and you'd be hard pressed to find things the government doesn't want you to see.


Plus it costs money to run a TV station and how many people are going to want to advertise on an Arab station while the war had just started?
Not to mention viewership would have been very poor.


Try again.

Now you are being completely stupid

Corporations censor shit all the time. You see dumbass, most people worship and jack off to mainstream media so yes what they say, how they say it, what they don't say, the list of sources etc etc all have an affect on how perceptions are shaped. Of course you are going to be stupid again and deny this.

Did you hear about this?
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/19/ex...war-crime/

Oh that's right, you didn't hear about it when it happened, because it was way after and on one of the billions of websites and not a major news issue.

Are you retarded and deny corporations censor shit or do you want more examples?

I didn't deny it, I said, if you bothered to comprehend what I'm typing, we are far from censored compared to places like China because we have a very free internet.

News shows don't have time to show every single piece of news and if people want to rely just on TV news then that's their problem.
The point is, it's all out there.

[Styrofoam02]

(18-11-2012 07:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  

(18-11-2012 07:31 PM)Styrofoam02 Wrote:  You can look at East Berlin and compare it to West Berlin and just see which side was better off. The wall wasn't built to keep people out, it was built to keep people IN....

You're dangerously close to using the same arguments that homeopaths use. "Think of how bad they would be without their communist regimes" but this is... just silly. China and Russia both were basically feudal, Kings, lords, serfs. This is not a western democracy with a free market, and yet you imply that this was the case before the revolutions there. And while they may be better off now than under the original Chinese Emperors... that doesn't mean that this is the clear winner. Modern China, even though it looks great on the eastern shores, is full of rampant poverty. Just go to western regions of China if you want to see the real picture. Rule of Law is sorely absent in China; organ harvesting, Internet Censorship and human rights abuses are the order of the day. It is said that there is little change other than the fact that Emperor has been replaced by Communist Party of China, people being slaves to Communist Party.

your crocodile tears about labor are laughable considering that you gladly use products that are made with parts that were made by slave like labor in your capitalist countries. Obviously you aren't that concerned about it. Wages are getting worse in the U.S. due to inflation and over the past decades corporations have systematically destroyed labor unions.

Next

"people being slaves to the communist party" The U.S. locks out third party candidates from debating on tv, even most industrialized countries don't do this. Again, obviously you aren't that concerned about the lack of political diversity.

The issue of censorship is also a funny one, you see, in capitalist countries the GOVERNMENT is not allowed to censor but the powerful corporations are allowed to censor and do so all the time. Remember during the Iraq war U.S. cable companies refused to have arab cable channels on their list of channels? There are countless stories of issues not discussed due to pressure from corporations. Again, you obviously aren't concerned about censorship since you are ok with it if it is the corporations doing the censoring.


Next

You, sir, are either unconcerned with intellectual honesty in your debate, or are a really dedicated troll. I am not sure which it is.

1) I didn't mention anything about products or any other consumerism what so ever. Irrelevant. Even if I had, my opinion on the subject doesn't change the clear human rights violations in China, nor does my opinion whether I am a hypocrite about it or not, doesn't make your argument any more valid.

2) You bring up a completely separate issue to what I was saying about "being slave to the communist party" which was there is only superficial differences between the "King" and the leader of the "communist party". Why side step the actual issue I brought up by trying to point out a problem with the US way of doing things? Does a problem in a democratic republic like the USA automatically make China better? NO. That is a false dilemma fallacy.... But I will address your non point: I oppose restrictive ballot laws like they have in Oklahoma which makes 3rd party voting nearly impossible. But this is just a symptom of the actual problem which is a "First past the post" voting system that encourages "defensive voting" that almost always goes into a 2 party system where power is often consolidated between the parties. I don't like it, and I actively campaign for third party ballot access.

3) So what you're saying is you would rather have the government censor everything all together, rather than censor nothing, and leave the choices up to private citizens who have private companies? That sounds rather ludicrous, don't you think? Under which system do you have the LEAST censorship? Clearly its not the Chinese system. This is a CLEAR advantage to my side (unless you actually VALUE censorship).
You miss the point entirely. As has already been pointed out, we can access the internet and find more information that a private corporation doesn't give us. And that if there is enough DEMAND for a product or service, then something will SUPPLY the product or service to meet the demand. If there was a large enough demand for middle eastern news networks then cable companies would offer it. CLEARLY there wasn't enough demand. And even so, you could get your information online. Try googleing IN CHINA about anti-Chinese literature or propaganda. Good luck. Try speaking out against the government. Good luck. Luckily, I live in a free society where I can say and do almost anything (within reason).

And censorship is bad. But if a private company doesn't want to do something, its not my place to tell them they MUST do it, ESPECIALLY at the the threat of violence, which is what a big powerful government like the one you want is. Nothing but the implicit threat of violence against peaceful people.

[Styrofoam02]

(18-11-2012 08:56 PM)I and I Wrote:  

(18-11-2012 08:41 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  They aren't communist yet by the very definition of communism. Until they fully eliminate class based society, calling the country communist is both inaccurate and an empty gesture.

Yeah, they've had tremendous successes in some of those countries, but a lot of it was done under the same exploitative, oppressive, and misguided measures that befalls capitalism as well.The party bastardized everything to shit until they became the new face of the oppressors, hence the same shit starts all over again.

You can believe about all that "everything you believe is false since capitalism has its greasy hands somewhere in there," (although I have a hard time seeing how capitalism has its hand in the many Marxist theorists that don't have the same rose-colored glasses you do when it comes to the possibility of the party developing a bourgeois character and self-serving tendencies), but I just see us as being two pawns in the same game. The only difference is that under my preferred form of government, I KNOW when its trying to fuck me up the ass, but I can decide whether I want just the tip penetrating or the whole shaft. Meanwhile, under your preferred government, you would be balls deep under their command, a mindless drone. If you are convinced that Stalin was a beneficial individual in the grand scheme of things, I'm thoroughly convinced you could willingly make a defense of just about anybody.

Trust me, I wish communism was a viable option. It's a far better theory on paper than capitalism in terms of equality, ethicality, and integrity
In practice though...

Carry on now. I'm sure I'm only the 99,000th capitalist drone to criticize your irreproachable, rock-solid arguments.

Right....and a nation of full of junk food eating, reality show watching buffoons who worry more about who snookie is banging this month....no they aren't mindless drones at all. You may care about how your government is screwing you, but most americans don't and perfectly ok with their shitty living situations, shitty wages, political system ran by corporations and the countless other bullshit....yes this makes them mindless drones.

Watch the drones the day after thanksgiving and tell me that is what freedom is all about. The next waffle iron?

So according to you there has never been a communist system?

This post is so chock full of logic fallacies. Ad hominem right off the top. you immediately disregard an American's argument as false because of their country of origin and their dietary and entertainment choices? I fail to see how eating twinkies disqualifies an argument for capitalism... Besides that, you broadbrush the entire American culture as a stereotype that doesn't exist.

More ad hominem calling people drones for going out on black friday and spending money on deals? this doesn't validate your argument for communism... at all.

By the way, have you ever actually read Karl Marx? If you have you'd realize there has never actually been a true communist country, ever. They've never made it to the part where the leaders relinquish control of the means of production back to the society after the proletariat have overthrown the bourgeois and leveled the playing field (By force and violent means.)

It always ends up with power consolidated in the hands of the very few, ruling with fear and violence.

[Erxomai]

Can I love money and not be a capitalist? Cuz I really do loves me some ducats.

[I and I]

(18-11-2012 11:30 PM)Styrofoam02 Wrote:  

(18-11-2012 07:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  your crocodile tears about labor are laughable considering that you gladly use products that are made with parts that were made by slave like labor in your capitalist countries. Obviously you aren't that concerned about it. Wages are getting worse in the U.S. due to inflation and over the past decades corporations have systematically destroyed labor unions.

Next

"people being slaves to the communist party" The U.S. locks out third party candidates from debating on tv, even most industrialized countries don't do this. Again, obviously you aren't that concerned about the lack of political diversity.

The issue of censorship is also a funny one, you see, in capitalist countries the GOVERNMENT is not allowed to censor but the powerful corporations are allowed to censor and do so all the time. Remember during the Iraq war U.S. cable companies refused to have arab cable channels on their list of channels? There are countless stories of issues not discussed due to pressure from corporations. Again, you obviously aren't concerned about censorship since you are ok with it if it is the corporations doing the censoring.


Next

You, sir, are either unconcerned with intellectual honesty in your debate, or are a really dedicated troll. I am not sure which it is.

1) I didn't mention anything about products or any other consumerism what so ever. Irrelevant. Even if I had, my opinion on the subject doesn't change the clear human rights violations in China, nor does my opinion whether I am a hypocrite about it or not, doesn't make your argument any more valid.

2) You bring up a completely separate issue to what I was saying about "being slave to the communist party" which was there is only superficial differences between the "King" and the leader of the "communist party". Why side step the actual issue I brought up by trying to point out a problem with the US way of doing things? Does a problem in a democratic republic like the USA automatically make China better? NO. That is a false dilemma fallacy.... But I will address your non point: I oppose restrictive ballot laws like they have in Oklahoma which makes 3rd party voting nearly impossible. But this is just a symptom of the actual problem which is a "First past the post" voting system that encourages "defensive voting" that almost always goes into a 2 party system where power is often consolidated between the parties. I don't like it, and I actively campaign for third party ballot access.

3) So what you're saying is you would rather have the government censor everything all together, rather than censor nothing, and leave the choices up to private citizens who have private companies? That sounds rather ludicrous, don't you think? Under which system do you have the LEAST censorship? Clearly its not the Chinese system. This is a CLEAR advantage to my side (unless you actually VALUE censorship).
You miss the point entirely. As has already been pointed out, we can access the internet and find more information that a private corporation doesn't give us. And that if there is enough DEMAND for a product or service, then something will SUPPLY the product or service to meet the demand. If there was a large enough demand for middle eastern news networks then cable companies would offer it. CLEARLY there wasn't enough demand. And even so, you could get your information online. Try googleing IN CHINA about anti-Chinese literature or propaganda. Good luck. Try speaking out against the government. Good luck. Luckily, I live in a free society where I can say and do almost anything (within reason).

And censorship is bad. But if a private company doesn't want to do something, its not my place to tell them they MUST do it, ESPECIALLY at the the threat of violence, which is what a big powerful government like the one you want is. Nothing but the implicit threat of violence against peaceful people.

So let me get this straight, FAR MORE military attacks, invasions, bombings of communist leaders, countries and rebels have occured than the other way around, but it's communism that is the strict totalitarian one? How is capitalism less totalitarian when they have used force in trying to force people to be capitalist far more often than communist countries have?