So.....who loves capitalism?
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05-12-2012, 06:44 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
I and I,
Your initial thread posts are confrontational and incendiary. If you want to have a discussion, dial it back.

You are the one creating the hostile mood; others react to it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-12-2012, 06:56 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
or you know, just leave.

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05-12-2012, 08:49 AM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2012 08:52 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
I and I, I am still waiting for you to explain what you believe a free market even is. You have yet to demonstrate any basic understanding of any of the points made against you. You haven't established what is intrinsically bad about the free-mixed market capitalistic system, or how communism could be any better. You have provided nothing of substance, and quite frankly, you are a poor debater. You have not attempted to participate in a rational or logical discussion concerning many of the topics you have posted here. You are either incredibly stupid, arrogantly ignorant, or a troll. Leave please, it would do us all a favor.

And, perhaps in the meantime, you could read books pertaining to capitalism that were not authored by third-rate bachelor political science majors, and educate yourself with various biases, as opposed to the single one that seems to agree with your position.

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05-12-2012, 09:09 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 08:49 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I and I, I am still waiting for you to explain what you believe a free market even is. You have yet to demonstrate any basic understanding of any of the points made against you. You haven't established what is intrinsically bad about the free-mixed market capitalistic system, or how communism could be any better. You have provided nothing of substance, and quite frankly, you are a poor debater. You have not attempted to participate in a rational or logical discussion concerning many of the topics you have posted here. You are either incredibly stupid, arrogantly ignorant, or a troll. Leave please, it would do us all a favor.

And, perhaps in the meantime, you could read books pertaining to capitalism that were not authored by third-rate bachelor political science majors, and educate yourself with various biases, as opposed to the single one that seems to agree with your position.
Here is a loaded request for you.....Name the books on capitalism and communism that you have read, I will read those to gain a better understanding of your views.....

Drinking Beverage ( I love when I ask a question in which I already know the answer)

Capitalism is not a "free" market by any means, I have asked for evidence of this and haven't got any.

How is a small group of people owning most of the media a free media or a small minority of people owning most of the corporations a free market? Capitalism is a system based on classes in which one class owns and controls most of the wealth and controls the political apparatus, we communists want to implement the same thing only with the working class (the vast majority) being the ones who control and own the wealth that society produces. Instead of societies wealth benefiting the few it will benefit the majority. The majority class being in control of the wealth we will use the wealth to better ourselves in education, political involvement, healthcare, shorter working days, better living standards. Right now under Capitalism diverts wealth to things that don't benefit the working class at all and reduce people to just being mindless consumers.
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05-12-2012, 10:01 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
The Wealth of Nations, several of Karl Marx's essays, Road to Serfdom, United States of Europe, etc. I am also going to university, and am taking both micro and macro economics.

Oh, and can you show me a true "People's Republic"? The impracticality of Marx's theories is what makes them silly, not the general idea. He was a genius, and I am sure he would have developed an improved Marxist model had he taken into account human nature.


My education, however, does not concern you. I have asked you some very basic questions, ones that a high school student could answer, and you have avoided each one of them. Now, answer them or leave now.

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05-12-2012, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2012 10:40 AM by I and I.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 10:01 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  The Wealth of Nations, several of Karl Marx's essays, Road to Serfdom, United States of Europe, etc. I am also going to university, and am taking both micro and macro economics.

Oh, and can you show me a true "People's Republic"? The impracticality of Marx's theories is what makes them silly, not the general idea. He was a genius, and I am sure he would have developed an improved Marxist model had he taken into account human nature.


My education, however, does not concern you. I have asked you some very basic questions, ones that a high school student could answer, and you have avoided each one of them. Now, answer them or leave now.
In Adam Smiths wealth of nations, Adam Smith refers to something called "primitive accumulation". Adam Smith along with many economists deal with that topic, however only Marx gave the proper historical definition of "primitive accumulation". Back in Smiths day the British government was implementing laws that would push british society from an agricultural to an industrial society, in order to do this they had to accumulate land in order to turn farmers into a labor force that would then work in the newly arising industrial age. This change in the labor force is mentioned by economists like Adam Smith but only Marx deals with this as the key turning factor that allowed capitalism to grow because the capitalist class was able to implement laws that benefited them in order to aquire the "primitive accumulation" as defined by economists.

What are your thoughts on this period?

Here is the book I am referring to that deals with this topic and that time period. http://www.amazon.com/Invention-Capitali...0822324911 The book also deals with current historical revisionism in that this period of when the capitalist class was becoming a political force is looked upon today as just something that happened through hard work, or saving money and becoming smart business people, in reality it was much more than that.
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05-12-2012, 01:36 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2012 06:15 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
This is the issue I have with your source. It is a single book, obviously biased in favor of Marxist theory (the author has a PhD in agricultural economics, but he's also a supporter of Marxist philosophy). I have read books supporting both sides, and not ones that simply agree or align with my world view or perception. I have read Ayn Rand, a person who is obviously a sociopath, and I greatly disagree with her philosophies (she was a massively insensitive tool).

But, again, capitalism is not the cause of woes. Neither Marxist theory nor Capitalism (mixed or free marketed) is perfect. There is an uneven set of classes for every economic system. Communism has its wealthy few, just as capitalism. The only difference is that the wealthy few have the power of both the government and military, where as the U.S' government is not operating everything.

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05-12-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 01:36 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  This is the issue I have with your source. It is a single book, obviously biased in favor of Marxist theory (the author has a PhD in agricultural economics, but he also a supporter of Marxist philosophy). I have read books supporting both sides, and not ones that simply agree or align with my world view or perception. I have read Ayn Rand, a person who is obviously a sociopath, and I greatly disagree with her philosophies (she was a massively insensitive tool).

But, again, capitalism is not the cause of woes. Neither Marxist theory nor Capitalism (mixed or free marketed) is perfect. There is an uneven set of classes for every economic system. Communism has its wealthy few, just as capitalism. The only difference is that the wealthy few have the power of both the government and military, where as the U.S' government is not operating everything.
What are your thoughts on Primitive Accumulation? It was a big topic for the classical economists including Marx.

What is a "free" market? Free to who?

Communism isn't against people being more wealthy than others, communism is against exploiting the labor others as a means to acquire wealth, no communist government ever implied, said or even tried to implement a policy where a doctor gets paid the same amount as a janitor. (That is a very funny and old misconception of communism.)

A market in order to be "free" would mean that all benefit from societies wealth in education, living standards, wages and political participation by everyone at some level. The capitalist system doesn't allow this kind of freedom, it only allows freedom for the small minority of people who own most of productive capacities and privately own the wealth that is produced by the labor of others. This system is designed to where only a few can or ever will be able to participate in a "free" market.

The Capitalist system is designed where many economic policies and foreign policies are due to the needs and wants and persuasion of this small capitalist class. The Capitalist class has great influence and control politically and economically yet the people do not vote them into or out of power, this is not a free market, at least it is not free to most of the population.
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05-12-2012, 02:32 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2012 02:46 PM by Vosur.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 02:02 PM)I and I Wrote:  The Capitalist system is designed where many economic policies and foreign policies are due to the needs and wants and persuasion of this small capitalist class. The Capitalist class has great influence and control politically and economically yet the people do not vote them into or out of power, this is not a free market, at least it is not free to most of the population.
Those living under a capitalistic system "vote" for those in power by buying their products/using their services.

If nobody were to buy, let's say, Apple products, they'd soon go bankrupt and lose most of their power.

Citizens can use their money and their voices to influence the choices that companies are making. To give you an example: In 1995, the oil and gas company Shell wanted to dispose of an oil tanker called "Brent Spar" in the Atlantic Ocean; even though they had the possibility of getting rid of it on land. Following the events, governments, non-government organizations and several businesses advised people to boycott Shell, so that they would firstly be under pressure and secondly receive financial damage. On June 20th, the company had to retract their original plans and disposed of the oil tanker on land instead. They had to do so both because of their loss in income and because of the bad publicity.

I suggest you to read upon the concept of (good) global governance as well.

The fact that major companies that violate human rights and environmental laws are still in power means that peeps either don't know that they have an influence on the actions of these corporations, or they simply don't care about it. You can hardly blame Capitalism for the apathetic attitude/ignorance that so many people seem to have.

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05-12-2012, 02:41 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 02:02 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(05-12-2012 01:36 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  This is the issue I have with your source. It is a single book, obviously biased in favor of Marxist theory (the author has a PhD in agricultural economics, but he also a supporter of Marxist philosophy). I have read books supporting both sides, and not ones that simply agree or align with my world view or perception. I have read Ayn Rand, a person who is obviously a sociopath, and I greatly disagree with her philosophies (she was a massively insensitive tool).

But, again, capitalism is not the cause of woes. Neither Marxist theory nor Capitalism (mixed or free marketed) is perfect. There is an uneven set of classes for every economic system. Communism has its wealthy few, just as capitalism. The only difference is that the wealthy few have the power of both the government and military, where as the U.S' government is not operating everything.
What are your thoughts on Primitive Accumulation? It was a big topic for the classical economists including Marx.

What is a "free" market? Free to who?

Communism isn't against people being more wealthy than others, communism is against exploiting the labor others as a means to acquire wealth, no communist government ever implied, said or even tried to implement a policy where a doctor gets paid the same amount as a janitor. (That is a very funny and old misconception of communism.)

A market in order to be "free" would mean that all benefit from societies wealth in education, living standards, wages and political participation by everyone at some level. The capitalist system doesn't allow this kind of freedom, it only allows freedom for the small minority of people who own most of productive capacities and privately own the wealth that is produced by the labor of others. This system is designed to where only a few can or ever will be able to participate in a "free" market.

The Capitalist system is designed where many economic policies and foreign policies are due to the needs and wants and persuasion of this small capitalist class. The Capitalist class has great influence and control politically and economically yet the people do not vote them into or out of power, this is not a free market, at least it is not free to most of the population.
Previous accumulation was and still is a major issue, yes. Any economic system exploits the ideal, capitalist or not.

I never implied that communism bestowed equality on income for specific jobs. You make too many assumptions about your opposition's understanding of Marxist theory. I said the idea of it protecting workers and the common people from exploitation is wrong.

A free market is simply an economic system that operates off of supply and demand, without imposed government regulation. It has nothing to do with a just distribution of money, dissolution of classes, or necessarily astronomical poverty rates. However, I do disagree with an unregulated capitalist economy. That is why I support a mixed capitalist economy or certain forms of market socialism.

Capitalism simply deals with the privatized means to produce capital. An individual will sell his expertise and labor to another individual. Whether or not the laborer is justly payed is solely up to the ethics of all involved parties (including the government and its economic regulation, thus the minimum wage). Like different forms of Marxism, Socialism, and Communism, there are different forms of Capitalism. However, the core theory is just that. Any additions are a variation of the theory.

Quite plainly you can have multiple theories enacted at once, which is what I support. However, to specifically target one theory and blame all your woes on it is intellectually dishonest. No one, I repeat, no one on this forum has said or even implied that capitalism, or any other economic system, is perfect. Stop acting as though we are all far right hicks with no education.

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