So.....who loves capitalism?
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06-12-2012, 08:07 AM
So.....who loves capitalism?
(06-12-2012 07:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(06-12-2012 12:44 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Of course I can. Have you read my response to you?
no, I didn't read any response that made the case for one small class having a lot of poltical control and the majority having very little political representation somehow being a democracy. I didn't read that one, wher is it?

Is it one of those "workers have control buy what they purchase" kind of arguments. Heard it before, not original at all and very easily refuted.

Drinking Beverage

So, you're saying it's kinda like everything you say. Heard it before, not original at all and very easily refuted.

Drinking Beverage

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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06-12-2012, 08:09 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(06-12-2012 07:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(06-12-2012 12:44 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Of course I can. Have you read my response to you?
no, I didn't read any response that made the case for one small class having a lot of poltical control and the majority having very little political representation somehow being a democracy. I didn't read that one, wher is it?

Is it one of those "workers have control buy what they purchase" kind of arguments. Heard it before, not original at all and very easily refuted.

Drinking Beverage
Anyone can say that an argument is unoriginal and easily refuted. Why don't you read it and refute it ?
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06-12-2012, 08:18 AM
So.....who loves capitalism?
I love capitalism.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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06-12-2012, 08:26 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(05-12-2012 06:28 PM)I and I Wrote:  The idea of a mixed capitalist economy is based on a false assumption that the government structure under capitalism is a separate entity that keeps capitalism in check. This is a nice idea but so is eating cake all day and having free sex with strippers. All throughout history capitalism needs a subservient government that exists for their interests in order to survive as capitalism. This government under capitalism exists to maintain laws that benefit capitalism and to keep capitalism afloat by creating mechanisms in which the capitalists don't eat themselves and the economy into the ground. Government and Capitalists even being discussed in this manner gives the false impression that they aren't one and the same, when in reality if you look at where the politicians come from, they usually come from the military and/or economic sector. The capitalist class control of the state apparatus is the means in which the exert their control over the working class.

I read a book a long time ago about the building of the transcontinental railroad in the U.S. during the 1800's. One thing that stood out was how much the private companies relied on, bribed, and manipulated the state apparatus to get the railroad built, from the police, the military, local officials in different states and counties etc etc. all were subservient to and were a tool in which the capitalist class implemented it's control. Even before capitalism the ruling classes always rely on and use the government structure as a means to exert control so this is nothing new.

Communists believe that the working class should control the state apparatus and use it for it's own good in which laws, police, military will all be used to help the working class (the vast majority) instead of the state being used by the capitalist class (a small minority). A political system that aims to help and is designed to help the majority is surely a more democratic system wouldn't you say?
The idea is applicable, and has been done so in the majority of the European Union. The only major mistake the European Union made, which could have easily been avoided, was the rapid recruitment for Euro zone economics. They should have looked more closely at the nations they were accepting, and they would have been far better off than they are now. What you are describing is "Crony Capitalism", the form of Capitalism that exists in the United States today. Trusts have been dealt with, but quickly replaced with powerful lobbying rights. Limiting the majority of lobbying rights is the next leap in creating powerful economic power.

The railroad companies were able to expand so quickly because of goods transport during the war, and the following increase in stock investment. The cost of the product exceeded the actual value and supply, creating a burst and a depression afterwards. This is how any economy works, with rises and falls. There is nothing you can do to prevent these crashes, regardless of economic system, and the only thing to do is cushion the blow to citizens. I don't know if you have noticed, but a major recession occurs in rough twenty year intervals.

Again, a great idea, but an impractical one. It is impossible to do so, and all you need to do is look at history to know that the abuse of the working class will continue regardless. The only difference is that companies do not have absolute power, and can actually be defeated (see the failure of the publishing market's attempt for SOPA and PIPA). Communism is not the proper tool to repair western economics. Reforms are.

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06-12-2012, 08:28 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(06-12-2012 07:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(06-12-2012 12:44 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Of course I can. Have you read my response to you?
no, I didn't read any response that made the case for one small class having a lot of poltical control and the majority having very little political representation somehow being a democracy. I didn't read that one, wher is it?

Is it one of those "workers have control buy what they purchase" kind of arguments. Heard it before, not original at all and very easily refuted.

Drinking Beverage
I also recommend you actually read opposing arguments and critiques before you start to act like a pompous and arrogant ass. It makes you less of an insufferable little shit. Drinking Beverage

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06-12-2012, 08:36 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(06-12-2012 07:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  I didn't read that one, wher is it?
Right here: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid214307

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06-12-2012, 08:38 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(06-12-2012 08:26 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(05-12-2012 06:28 PM)I and I Wrote:  The idea of a mixed capitalist economy is based on a false assumption that the government structure under capitalism is a separate entity that keeps capitalism in check. This is a nice idea but so is eating cake all day and having free sex with strippers. All throughout history capitalism needs a subservient government that exists for their interests in order to survive as capitalism. This government under capitalism exists to maintain laws that benefit capitalism and to keep capitalism afloat by creating mechanisms in which the capitalists don't eat themselves and the economy into the ground. Government and Capitalists even being discussed in this manner gives the false impression that they aren't one and the same, when in reality if you look at where the politicians come from, they usually come from the military and/or economic sector. The capitalist class control of the state apparatus is the means in which the exert their control over the working class.

I read a book a long time ago about the building of the transcontinental railroad in the U.S. during the 1800's. One thing that stood out was how much the private companies relied on, bribed, and manipulated the state apparatus to get the railroad built, from the police, the military, local officials in different states and counties etc etc. all were subservient to and were a tool in which the capitalist class implemented it's control. Even before capitalism the ruling classes always rely on and use the government structure as a means to exert control so this is nothing new.

Communists believe that the working class should control the state apparatus and use it for it's own good in which laws, police, military will all be used to help the working class (the vast majority) instead of the state being used by the capitalist class (a small minority). A political system that aims to help and is designed to help the majority is surely a more democratic system wouldn't you say?
The idea is applicable, and has been done so in the majority of the European Union. The only major mistake the European Union made, which could have easily been avoided, was the rapid recruitment for Euro zone economics. They should have looked more closely at the nations they were accepting, and they would have been far better off than they are now. What you are describing is "Crony Capitalism", the form of Capitalism that exists in the United States today. Trusts have been dealt with, but quickly replaced with powerful lobbying rights. Limiting the majority of lobbying rights is the next leap in creating powerful economic power.

The railroad companies were able to expand so quickly because of goods transport during the war, and the following increase in stock investment. The cost of the product exceeded the actual value and supply, creating a burst and a depression afterwards. This is how any economy works, with rises and falls. There is nothing you can do to prevent these crashes, regardless of economic system, and the only thing to do is cushion the blow to citizens. I don't know if you have noticed, but a major recession occurs in rough twenty year intervals.

Again, a great idea, but an impractical one. It is impossible to do so, and all you need to do is look at history to know that the abuse of the working class will continue regardless. The only difference is that companies do not have absolute power, and can actually be defeated (see the failure of the publishing market's attempt for SOPA and PIPA). Communism is not the proper tool to repair western economics. Reforms are.
Reforms have been done before and they don't solve anything, the crisis just gets pushed down the road, look at the 2008 crisis in the U.S. The banks got bailed out and then started to do the same thing and create another bigger bubble which will burst in due time.

When you say crony capitalism, do you mean out of the ordinary capitalism? or ordinary capitalism? I can find plenty of examples to show that what you call crony capitalism isn't out of the ordinary.

And do you agree or disagree with the reforms that are working and many latin american countries are adopting? They call themselves marxist but are more socialist and private ownership of companies is still allowed and their countries are doing great compared to most of the world.

I was referring to the intercontinental railroad of the mid 1800's and how huge companies and the capitalist government have always worked hand in hand together most of the time.

Many communist countries, many of whom were overthrown in a coup had reforms that you would probably agree with. Example: One that I would implement is that ownership of businesses is allowed with a cap of the amount of employees one can employ, this would limit exploitation on a mass scale and maintain healthy competition. This was one of lenins proposals before he died in the Soviet Union. And most communist leaders are not the stereotypical castro like where they just get rid of all private ownership of businesses.
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06-12-2012, 09:23 AM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2012 09:26 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(06-12-2012 08:38 AM)I and I Wrote:  Reforms have been done before and they don't solve anything, the crisis just gets pushed down the road, look at the 2008 crisis in the U.S. The banks got bailed out and then started to do the same thing and create another bigger bubble which will burst in due time.

When you say crony capitalism, do you mean out of the ordinary capitalism? or ordinary capitalism? I can find plenty of examples to show that what you call crony capitalism isn't out of the ordinary.

And do you agree or disagree with the reforms that are working and many latin american countries are adopting? They call themselves marxist but are more socialist and private ownership of companies is still allowed and their countries are doing great compared to most of the world.

I was referring to the intercontinental railroad of the mid 1800's and how huge companies and the capitalist government have always worked hand in hand together most of the time.

Many communist countries, many of whom were overthrown in a coup had reforms that you would probably agree with. Example: One that I would implement is that ownership of businesses is allowed with a cap of the amount of employees one can employ, this would limit exploitation on a mass scale and maintain healthy competition. This was one of lenins proposals before he died in the Soviet Union. And most communist leaders are not the stereotypical castro like where they just get rid of all private ownership of businesses.
Reforms have worked in the past, dealing with anti-trust laws, and they will continue to work today. Whether or not the government, at this specific point in time has handled this situation well, is a different story. Reforms take time, see the civil rights movement or the labor movement.

When I say Crony Capitalism, I mean Crony Capitalism. Again, the original theory of capitalism does not even come close to implying government involvement, and any modification is a variation.

Again, we are back to referencing the Gilded Age. Do you know where comes from? It is a rather ironic title for the era. It implies that the economy appeared to be in great shape, but the distribution was horrible. The same could be said for any Latin American country, including the most successful, Brazil. The United States is definitely guilty of Crony Capitalism, however, that can be changed and resorting to another extreme in order to repair another is just asking for more difficulties.

So was I, and I refuted your argument in stating the railroad companies made the majority of their money through capitalist means. Using the small fortune they made off of goods transport for the civil war, investing it in the westward expansion, in order to create more capital.

I don't agree with any extremity, and I thought I made that quite clear when I stated I am in favor of a mixed economy. Your proposed economic reform fails to maintain healthy competition. You limit the company's ability to expand, then you also limit their incentive for competition. That is one of the major reasons communist companies fail frequently.

I don't view Lenin as a particularly bright person, nor do I for any other communist dictator or activist. As Stalin famously said, they are useful idiots.

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06-12-2012, 09:35 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(06-12-2012 09:23 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(06-12-2012 08:38 AM)I and I Wrote:  Reforms have been done before and they don't solve anything, the crisis just gets pushed down the road, look at the 2008 crisis in the U.S. The banks got bailed out and then started to do the same thing and create another bigger bubble which will burst in due time.

When you say crony capitalism, do you mean out of the ordinary capitalism? or ordinary capitalism? I can find plenty of examples to show that what you call crony capitalism isn't out of the ordinary.

And do you agree or disagree with the reforms that are working and many latin american countries are adopting? They call themselves marxist but are more socialist and private ownership of companies is still allowed and their countries are doing great compared to most of the world.

I was referring to the intercontinental railroad of the mid 1800's and how huge companies and the capitalist government have always worked hand in hand together most of the time.

Many communist countries, many of whom were overthrown in a coup had reforms that you would probably agree with. Example: One that I would implement is that ownership of businesses is allowed with a cap of the amount of employees one can employ, this would limit exploitation on a mass scale and maintain healthy competition. This was one of lenins proposals before he died in the Soviet Union. And most communist leaders are not the stereotypical castro like where they just get rid of all private ownership of businesses.
Reforms have worked in the past, dealing with anti-trust laws, and they will continue to work today. Whether or not the government, at this specific point in time has handled this situation well, is a different story. Reforms take time, see the civil rights movement or the labor movement.

When I say Crony Capitalism, I mean Crony Capitalism. Again, the original theory of capitalism does not even come close to implying government involvement, and any modification is a variation.

Again, we are back to referencing the Gilded Age. Do you know where comes from? It is a rather ironic title for the era. It implies that the economy appeared to be in great shape, but the distribution was horrible. The same could be said for any Latin American country, including the most successful, Brazil. The United States is definitely guilty of Crony Capitalism, however, that can be changed and resorting to another extreme in order to repair another is just asking for more difficulties.

So was I, and I refuted your argument in stating the railroad companies made the majority of their money through capitalist means. Using the small fortune they made off of goods transport for the civil war, investing it in the westward expansion, in order to create more capital.

I don't agree with any extremity, and I thought I made that quite clear when I stated I am in favor of a mixed economy. Your proposed economic reform fails to maintain healthy competition. You limit the company's ability to expand, then you also limit their incentive for competition. That is one of the major reasons communist companies fail frequently.

I don't view Lenin as a particularly bright person, nor do I for any other communist dictator or activist. As Stalin famously said, they are useful idiots.
Right, competition by nature will always lead to monopoly therefore restriction of and control of the markets by the few. How do you solve this capitalist dilemna? That begs the question, if competition leads to uncertainty and failing markets based on an invidividuals bad luck or bad choices thus affecting society as a whole, how in the world is this a viable system to run a civilization?

Whether you call real capitalism government involvement or not, that doesn't refute the fact that government and capital have ALWAYS helped each other out and existed for one another. Never in capitalist history has this not been the case.

The other factor that Marx dealt with was the exploitation factor of capitalism. The capitalist gets much more out of labor than they put back into labor in wages, and given the position of not owning their own ways to produce food and clothing and shelter, the workers is compelled to enter into this non-equal transaction of selling labor time. Explain how that means a free market?
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06-12-2012, 09:56 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(06-12-2012 09:35 AM)I and I Wrote:  Right, competition by nature will always lead to monopoly therefore restriction of and control of the markets by the few. How do you solve this capitalist dilemna? That begs the question, if competition leads to uncertainty and failing markets based on an invidividuals bad luck or bad choices thus affecting society as a whole, how in the world is this a viable system to run a civilization?

Whether you call real capitalism government involvement or not, that doesn't refute the fact that government and capital have ALWAYS helped each other out and existed for one another. Never in capitalist history has this not been the case.

The other factor that Marx dealt with was the exploitation factor of capitalism. The capitalist gets much more out of labor than they put back into labor in wages, and given the position of not owning their own ways to produce food and clothing and shelter, the workers is compelled to enter into this non-equal transaction of selling labor time. Explain how that means a free market?

1)
Economics 101.


2)

(06-12-2012 08:26 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  The idea is applicable, and has been done so in the majority of the European Union. The only major mistake the European Union made, which could have easily been avoided, was the rapid recruitment for Euro zone economics. They should have looked more closely at the nations they were accepting, and they would have been far better off than they are now. What you are describing is "Crony Capitalism", the form of Capitalism that exists in the United States today. Trusts have been dealt with, but quickly replaced with powerful lobbying rights. Limiting the majority of lobbying rights is the next leap in creating powerful economic power.


3)

(05-12-2012 02:41 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  A free market is simply an economic system that operates off of supply and demand, without imposed government regulation. It has nothing to do with a just distribution of money, dissolution of classes, or necessarily astronomical poverty rates. However, I do disagree with an unregulated capitalist economy. That is why I support a mixed capitalist economy or certain forms of market socialism.


I am sorry that you are a fully grown adult and persist in your childish idealistic delusions. Perhaps you should return when you have a more firm understanding of how the world works.

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