So.....who loves capitalism?
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10-12-2012, 08:29 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(09-12-2012 03:01 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 06:22 PM)I and I Wrote:  Pick any capitalist government and tell me of one that wasn't a tool for the corporations to maintain control. I have yet to see any historical evidence that a government under a capitalist system and the corporations/business owners were separate entities. Have you ever looked up most presidents/leaders under capitalism in what their previous jobs were?

As for governments, I am sure we can agree that capitalist governments are horrible.

Assassination of/jailing/killing of union and labor leaders has been done in many capitalist countries.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200412--.htm again this IS the government under capitalism serving as a tool to help capitalists maintain power.

And here is a history of government/corporate interests actively seeking to diminish the power of labor unions in the U.S. over the past decades. To say that decreasing union membership is solely from individual choice wouldn't be true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...ted_States

What you call crony capitalism I call capitalism. The things that you consider to be crony are things that historically are what makes capitalism the economic system that it is.

Anti-trust laws didn't work in the U.S. They only work for a certain amount of time and are not permanent because of the nature of capitalism and competition. Capitalism always will be a system where the top dog has to and will do anything for a profit, and in order to do this they need to own more than the next guy, which will always lead to a few people owning most of the shit.

The function of a government under capitalism is to maintain supremacy of capitalist class over the working class, the purpose of a government in a communist system is to maintain the power of the working class.

And in the U.S. and many capitalist countries education isn't a top priority at all, and many capitalist countries don't provide free college. Have you ever looked at the education system in Cuba vs other latin american nations?
Pick any social capitalist country. Most of the European Union. The government is in firm control of its policies, and does an efficient job of keeping the country's companies in its grasp. However, I have yet to argue that a capitalist economic system does not effect the government. It would be a fools errand to argue that any economy does not control the government.

There is no such thing as a capitalist government.

I asked for a reliable source of information.

They have not done anything for over a half a century. You'd know that if you bothered to read your own citation.

I don't care if you incorrectly label things or not. You can stare at a blue chair and call it red, but it does not make it red.

Anti-trust laws have been extremely successful. See the anti-trust court suit for IDM and Microsoft just a few years ago.

The function under crony capitalism is to advance the agenda of corporations. The function of a government with mixed market social capitalism is to regulate it. It seems to me like you are just figuring out how the world works.

Yes, I have. Cuba's standard of living is far worse than most other South American countries.
It seems to me like you know nothing of history,I mean, to act like anti-union activities by the government and corporations has no affect on diminishing unions is a joke. To believe in capitalism do you have to be so ignorant to see evidence of government and corporations attacking labor unions then you actually believe that it has no affect? WHAT THE FUCK?

Check this out, let this roll around in your capitalist brain, let it sit and marinate it. TODAY (YES FUCKING TODAY) in Canada the government with corporate lobbying pressure is attempting to break labor unions power. http://www.globalresearch.ca/labour-legi...nt/5314902 Now are you going to sit there and spew this bullshit that this will have no affect on labor unions? If you can look at past actions in capitalist nations especially in the good ole dictatorship capitalist ones and say that there hasn't been any kind of attack on labor unions that had any affect then you simply have to ignore history to support capitalist ideology. And not to mention in capitalist dictatorships in which mass arrests and killings of labor leaders took place with uncle sam jizzing in his pants.

Speaking of ignoring history, since you still believe in the fantasy notion that anti-trust laws have worked, why do fewer people own and control more of the market and that has been the trajectory for several decades now despite anti-trust laws. In what line of business are you referring to in which antitrust laws have worked, name the line of business please, media? Oil? Pharmaceutical? Agriculture? etc

Earlier you said "You are able to select your career, change jobs accordingly, and seize
opportunities within that career. The choice is up to you. The
environment, nature, and variety of these choices is not." Explain how "the choice is up to you" if in the same sentence you state that the environment is not. What kind of choice is that? to choose between shitty low paying job X vs shitty low paying job Y?

Name the capitalist country that has ever regulated the market and made it to not be crony capitalism? You certainly aren't referring to the U.S.

And which capitalist countries in Latin have better living standards than Cuba? Where and when did you ever see this data?
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10-12-2012, 08:37 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
Here is a list of those poor and low income commies and socialists in latin america and around the world......Oh wait nevermind I just noticed on this list of 20 poorest nations on earth....THERE IS NO FUCKING COMMUNIST NATION.

Capitalism is so successful...the people are dying to have it.

Afghanistan? Oooh wasn't that supposed to be heaven on earth and soldiers greeted with flowers kinda thing?

I FUCKING LOVE IT.
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10-12-2012, 08:58 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2012 09:03 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  It seems to me like you know nothing of history,I mean, to act like anti-union activities by the government and corporations has no affect on diminishing unions is a joke. To believe in capitalism do you have to be so ignorant to see evidence of government and corporations attacking labor unions then you actually believe that it has no affect? WHAT THE FUCK?

If anyone here is ignorant, it is you.

(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  Check this out, let this roll around in your capitalist brain, let it sit and marinate it. TODAY (YES FUCKING TODAY) in Canada the government with corporate lobbying pressure is attempting to break labor unions power. http://www.globalresearch.ca/labour-legi...nt/5314902 Now are you going to sit there and spew this bullshit that this will have no affect on labor unions? If you can look at past actions in capitalist nations especially in the good ole dictatorship capitalist ones and say that there hasn't been any kind of attack on labor unions that had any affect then you simply have to ignore history to support capitalist ideology. And not to mention in capitalist dictatorships in which mass arrests and killings of labor leaders took place with uncle sam jizzing in his pants.

Again, you are demonstrating the negative affects of Crony Capitalism. However, I assumed we were addressing the United States. What other nations do with their labor and unionization laws is of little relevance to me.

(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  Speaking of ignoring history, since you still believe in the fantasy notion that anti-trust laws have worked, why do fewer people own and control more of the market and that has been the trajectory for several decades now despite anti-trust laws. In what line of business are you referring to in which antitrust laws have worked, name the line of business please, media? Oil? Pharmaceutical? Agriculture? etc

Not only have I supplied you with a very recent example, but I'd like to ask you to provide some statistics for your claim.

(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  Earlier you said "You are able to select your career, change jobs accordingly, and seize
opportunities within that career. The choice is up to you. The
environment, nature, and variety of these choices is not." Explain how "the choice is up to you" if in the same sentence you state that the environment is not. What kind of choice is that? to choose between shitty low paying job X vs shitty low paying job Y?

I said you are able to weigh the progressive and regressive benefits to any scenario, you have a choice. You act as though I have not found myself in said scenario.

(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  Name the capitalist country that has ever regulated the market and made it to not be crony capitalism? You certainly aren't referring to the U.S.

Germany, France, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Austria, which are the ideal capitalist markets I have been constantly referring to for three pages now. I am convinced you have not read the majority of my posts. You get one more shot in your annoying emotional replies to provide an adequate argument against capitalism, give me a counter-proposal, and divine how it is to be implemented.

(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  And which capitalist countries in Latin have better living standards than Cuba? Where and when did you ever see this data?

Brazil is currently experiencing more population, more economic, and more per capita growth than Cuba has every experienced, according to three sources: CIA Fact File, CNN, and United Nations.

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10-12-2012, 09:04 AM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(10-12-2012 08:37 AM)I and I Wrote:  Here is a list of those poor and low income commies and socialists in latin america and around the world......Oh wait nevermind I just noticed on this list of 20 poorest nations on earth....THERE IS NO FUCKING COMMUNIST NATION.

Capitalism is so successful...the people are dying to have it.

Afghanistan? Oooh wasn't that supposed to be heaven on earth and soldiers greeted with flowers kinda thing?

I FUCKING LOVE IT.
That is because you'd be hard pressed to find a modern nation with a communist economy, dumbass.

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12-12-2012, 03:22 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
Whoever says communism is a good idea is an idiot. Capitalism may make people greedy but it's the best we have got. Plus is rewards people who work hard for the extra money.
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12-12-2012, 04:24 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(10-12-2012 08:58 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  It seems to me like you know nothing of history,I mean, to act like anti-union activities by the government and corporations has no affect on diminishing unions is a joke. To believe in capitalism do you have to be so ignorant to see evidence of government and corporations attacking labor unions then you actually believe that it has no affect? WHAT THE FUCK?

If anyone here is ignorant, it is you.

(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  Check this out, let this roll around in your capitalist brain, let it sit and marinate it. TODAY (YES FUCKING TODAY) in Canada the government with corporate lobbying pressure is attempting to break labor unions power. http://www.globalresearch.ca/labour-legi...nt/5314902 Now are you going to sit there and spew this bullshit that this will have no affect on labor unions? If you can look at past actions in capitalist nations especially in the good ole dictatorship capitalist ones and say that there hasn't been any kind of attack on labor unions that had any affect then you simply have to ignore history to support capitalist ideology. And not to mention in capitalist dictatorships in which mass arrests and killings of labor leaders took place with uncle sam jizzing in his pants.

Again, you are demonstrating the negative affects of Crony Capitalism. However, I assumed we were addressing the United States. What other nations do with their labor and unionization laws is of little relevance to me.

(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  Speaking of ignoring history, since you still believe in the fantasy notion that anti-trust laws have worked, why do fewer people own and control more of the market and that has been the trajectory for several decades now despite anti-trust laws. In what line of business are you referring to in which antitrust laws have worked, name the line of business please, media? Oil? Pharmaceutical? Agriculture? etc

Not only have I supplied you with a very recent example, but I'd like to ask you to provide some statistics for your claim.

(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  Earlier you said "You are able to select your career, change jobs accordingly, and seize
opportunities within that career. The choice is up to you. The
environment, nature, and variety of these choices is not." Explain how "the choice is up to you" if in the same sentence you state that the environment is not. What kind of choice is that? to choose between shitty low paying job X vs shitty low paying job Y?

I said you are able to weigh the progressive and regressive benefits to any scenario, you have a choice. You act as though I have not found myself in said scenario.

(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  Name the capitalist country that has ever regulated the market and made it to not be crony capitalism? You certainly aren't referring to the U.S.

Germany, France, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Austria, which are the ideal capitalist markets I have been constantly referring to for three pages now. I am convinced you have not read the majority of my posts. You get one more shot in your annoying emotional replies to provide an adequate argument against capitalism, give me a counter-proposal, and divine how it is to be implemented.

(10-12-2012 08:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  And which capitalist countries in Latin have better living standards than Cuba? Where and when did you ever see this data?

Brazil is currently experiencing more population, more economic, and more per capita growth than Cuba has every experienced, according to three sources: CIA Fact File, CNN, and United Nations.
So you discount murder, arrests and oppression of labor organizing under any non european and american countries? So it's like I said a while back, you basically you have to ignore most of capitalist history to maintain your fantasy that capitalist nations don't oppress labor or don't kill labor union or political parties that support organizing labor. Another blow to your fantasy is that many of the countries you mentioned support other capitalist dictators and/or support coups that put capitalist dictators in place. Also, some of the countries you mentioned are members of NATO, didn't NATO and isn't NATO in the habit of overthrowing leaders to get access to that particular countries economy? Isn't France and Germany part of the whole Euro shim sham? That isn't crony capitalism to you? WOW

Brazil is a self proclaimed socialist/marxist country. Let me guess: you are going to pretend to know more about Brazil than Brazilians and you are going to tell me that Brazil is not a socialist nation. I am waiting for that very predictable response.

Here is an example of your lack of any knowledge of current or past events: You are boasting to me that the Brazil economy is so successful yet you didn't even know that the current president of Brazil is a former Marxist Guerilla and a self proclaimed socialist, along with the past president and many in the cabinet are leftist/Marxists. Using Brazil to somehow prove me wrong in something is a huge facepalm.

And no, you never provided a business field in which anti-trust laws have worked, and where is your statistics that more and more corporations are being formed as a result of this anti-trust laws? In the U.S. there are fewer media outlets than before, fewer oil companies than before, all because of one huge corporation buying others out. What planet do you live on where the opposite is happening?
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12-12-2012, 04:45 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2012 05:43 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(12-12-2012 04:24 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(10-12-2012 08:58 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If anyone here is ignorant, it is you.


Again, you are demonstrating the negative affects of Crony Capitalism. However, I assumed we were addressing the United States. What other nations do with their labor and unionization laws is of little relevance to me.


Not only have I supplied you with a very recent example, but I'd like to ask you to provide some statistics for your claim.


I said you are able to weigh the progressive and regressive benefits to any scenario, you have a choice. You act as though I have not found myself in said scenario.


Germany, France, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Austria, which are the ideal capitalist markets I have been constantly referring to for three pages now. I am convinced you have not read the majority of my posts. You get one more shot in your annoying emotional replies to provide an adequate argument against capitalism, give me a counter-proposal, and divine how it is to be implemented.


Brazil is currently experiencing more population, more economic, and more per capita growth than Cuba has every experienced, according to three sources: CIA Fact File, CNN, and United Nations.
So you discount murder, arrests and oppression of labor organizing under any non european and american countries? So it's like I said a while back, you basically you have to ignore most of capitalist history to maintain your fantasy that capitalist nations don't oppress labor or don't kill labor union or political parties that support organizing labor. Another blow to your fantasy is that many of the countries you mentioned support other capitalist dictators and/or support coups that put capitalist dictators in place. Also, some of the countries you mentioned are members of NATO, didn't NATO and isn't NATO in the habit of overthrowing leaders to get access to that particular countries economy? Isn't France and Germany part of the whole Euro shim sham? That isn't crony capitalism to you? WOW

Brazil is a self proclaimed socialist/marxist country. Let me guess: you are going to pretend to know more about Brazil than Brazilians and you are going to tell me that Brazil is not a socialist nation. I am waiting for that very predictable response.

Here is an example of your lack of any knowledge of current or past events: You are boasting to me that the Brazil economy is so successful yet you didn't even know that the current president of Brazil is a former Marxist Guerilla and a self proclaimed socialist, along with the past president and many in the cabinet are leftist/Marxists. Using Brazil to somehow prove me wrong in something is a huge facepalm.

And no, you never provided a business field in which anti-trust laws have worked, and where is your statistics that more and more corporations are being formed as a result of this anti-trust laws? In the U.S. there are fewer media outlets than before, fewer oil companies than before, all because of one huge corporation buying others out. What planet do you live on where the opposite is happening?
What delusional fantasy have I indicated that I lived in? I have told you multiple times that I acknowledge the issues that are proposed by American capitalism. I will not, however, make irrational, generalized conclusions concerning the entirety of capitalist theory because, overall, it works best. How is the European Union and its currency crony capitalism? I have provided you with definitions for the multiple types of capitalism, I am done with you on this point. You persist in this irrational belief that, since the U.S' implementation of capitalism is not ideal, that it is entirely flawed. Wrong.

China is also a self-proclaimed Communist nation. Are you going to tell me they do not observe a capitalist economic system?

I don't care if she claims she is the reincarnation of Karl Marx himself. Brazil currently operates a capitalist economy.

I provided the very recent example of the success of anti-trust laws concerning the attempted Microsoft takeover of Apple.

Well, I gave you your last attempt. You have provided me nothing, no new knowledge or insight. No proposed plans. Nothing. Good day. Reply again, I will simply ignore you.

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12-12-2012, 04:57 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
I just lost the count on how many times I said this: THERE ARE NO COMMUNIST COUNTRIES IN SOUTH AMERICA

btw Logica, the president of Brasil is a woman Tongue

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12-12-2012, 05:09 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(12-12-2012 04:45 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(12-12-2012 04:24 PM)I and I Wrote:  So you discount murder, arrests and oppression of labor organizing under any non european and american countries? So it's like I said a while back, you basically you have to ignore most of capitalist history to maintain your fantasy that capitalist nations don't oppress labor or don't kill labor union or political parties that support organizing labor. Another blow to your fantasy is that many of the countries you mentioned support other capitalist dictators and/or support coups that put capitalist dictators in place. Also, some of the countries you mentioned are members of NATO, didn't NATO and isn't NATO in the habit of overthrowing leaders to get access to that particular countries economy? Isn't France and Germany part of the whole Euro shim sham? That isn't crony capitalism to you? WOW

Brazil is a self proclaimed socialist/marxist country. Let me guess: you are going to pretend to know more about Brazil than Brazilians and you are going to tell me that Brazil is not a socialist nation. I am waiting for that very predictable response.

Here is an example of your lack of any knowledge of current or past events: You are boasting to me that the Brazil economy is so successful yet you didn't even know that the current president of Brazil is a former Marxist Guerilla and a self proclaimed socialist, along with the past president and many in the cabinet are leftist/Marxists. Using Brazil to somehow prove me wrong in something is a huge facepalm.

And no, you never provided a business field in which anti-trust laws have worked, and where is your statistics that more and more corporations are being formed as a result of this anti-trust laws? In the U.S. there are fewer media outlets than before, fewer oil companies than before, all because of one huge corporation buying others out. What planet do you live on where the opposite is happening?
What delusional fantasy have I indicated that I lived in? I have told you multiple times that I acknowledge the issues that are proposed by American capitalism. I will not, however, make irrational, generalized conclusions concerning the entirety of capitalist theory because, overall, it works best. How is the European Union and its currency crony capitalism? I have provided you with definitions for the multiple types of capitalism, I am done with you on this point. You persist in this irrational belief that, since the U.S' implementation of capitalism is not ideal, that it is entirely flawed. Wrong.

China is also a self-proclaimed Communist nation. Are you going to tell me they do not observe a capitalist economic system?

I don't care if he claims he is the reincarnation of Karl Marx himself. Brazil currently operates a capitalist economy.

I provided the very recent example of the success of anti-trust laws concerning the attempted Microsoft takeover of Apple.

Well, I gave you your last attempt. You have provided me nothing, no new knowledge or insight. No proposed plans. Nothing. Good day. Reply again, I will simply ignore you.
So according to you, the current and past president and the Brazilian government as a whole are lying when they call themselves marxists? And what in the hell makes you think Brazil is a capitalist country? because you say so? The leaders of Brazil and the voters in Brazil would think you are a complete idiot to say what you think the brazilian government and economy "really" is. Rolleyes

And you still haven't provided any statistics on whether or not antitrust laws inhibit, slow down or stop companies from becoming a monopoly. Are there fewer or more large companies today? Do more companies share in the over all profit or fewer?

If you want to claim China with all it's faults and good things as capitalist than go right ahead. However you can't claim they are both at the same time. many capitalists when speaking of chinas success like to claim that their economy is a capitalist one, yet when they are speaking of negative aspects of Chinas government they claim China is Communist. I hope you aren't one of those "they are what I want to call them out of convenience for arguments sake" kinda people.

Kinda like with Brazil, simply because it's successful your little head just can't grasp that a country can be successful and communist at the same time, it's something that your brain can't process I guess. So you make dumbass claims that Brazil is capitalist and totally disregard what all of the leaders in Brazil say. It is amazing to watch
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12-12-2012, 05:13 PM
RE: So.....who loves capitalism?
(12-12-2012 04:57 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I just lost the count on how many times I said this: THERE ARE NO COMMUNIST COUNTRIES IN SOUTH AMERICA

btw Logica, the president of Brasil is a woman Tongue
The issue of Brazil was when Logica tried to use Brazil as a successful capitalist nation in Latin America, so I then had to inform him of the current president of Brazil, her marxists beliefs and past marxist guerilla activity, the previous president and current president and cabinet all being marxists/socialsts/leftists of all kinds of marxist stripes.

That hardly fucking counts as a bastion of capitalism...

Logica probably had no clue who the brazilian president was until today.
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