So, whose forum is this, anyway?
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07-07-2013, 08:35 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 08:22 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  That will leave the forum team between a rock and a hard place. Half the forum want more stuff in there, half want less. We have flare up every time someone suggest moving a thread, whether it's moved or not. TTA would become a war zone.

This is not a war zone now?

I have trust enough in you guys to deliberate the pros and cons of moving various threads.

Maybe the criteria can be how off-topic threads are. Topics being atheism/theism and the sharing of life experiences many members share, like food or games or sports or whatever.

A thread that is harming members (just look at the casualties from this one) needs to be moved asap to contain the damage.

A thread that is irrelevant to most everyone can be considered for moving. It's not like threads won't be frequented once moved, you know that there will always be folks who enjoy a good free for all. It's not a punishment to have a thread moved.

Also, personally I view the pedo thread as spam. Spam being an attempt to use our site for promotion. Most spam promotes things, that's what it is there for. The pedo thread ranks way up there for being a promotional tool.

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07-07-2013, 08:37 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
I only vaguely remember that post but that isn't what I took from it. I thought he was more talking about how held felt the situation of someone being abused should be handled.

I'll re-read his posts when I get home from work though.

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07-07-2013, 08:40 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 08:37 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  I only vaguely remember that post but that isn't what I took from it. I thought he was more talking about how held felt the situation of someone being abused should be handled.

I'll re-read his posts when I get home from work though.

It proves without a doubt that the situation has been thought through and deliberated.

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07-07-2013, 09:28 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2013 10:43 AM by Humakt.)
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
Well heres an emotionally charged topic, with evidently a short but drama filled history Ive pretty much missed.

Heres my take:

1) Freedom of speech is this forums finest attribute, bar none. Freedom of speech is not a thing you get to restrict and still have. Even to the point of making a sub forum where the distasteful to some can be discussed. This is not freedom of speech, this is censorship pure and simple. You can't pretend to have free speech if you want stuff you dislike discussed only in private.

2) Pedophiles are talking about there issues in a public forum, my first reaction is, well good, it really speaks to the forums credit that a portion of society that is so vilified thinks of this as a safe place to discuss there issues. In a case such as this, the chance that someone struggling with there desires or what have you can discuss and maybe I don't know find some support or strength to stay within the bounds of the law is a potentially great thing, if even one potential child abuse is averted because a potential offender finds a support group to lean on then hoo fucking rah. After all discrimination, alienation and marginalising groups that always works out well for all concerned.
Also, given the fact that Seth has done a podcast on the subject, one I admit I havent listened to, but I imagine it wasnt a hate filled diatribe, I can imagine Seth finds the subject distasteful, but I would be surprised if he did not try at least to approach the subject in his usual fair minded way.
As there has been a podcast on the subject and this forum is a supporting adjunct the fact that the subject is being discussed here seems to me to be a natural progression of the discussion.

3) Banning I&I, I'm not overly familiar with him, I even to a certain extent avoid his threads, I dont find him to be different in anyway to a large section of the forum in regards to conduct, I avoid his posts because there is a large section of the forum who spam him with insults and accusations when ever he posts and I don't want to have to bother with it. God knows I'd love to tell them to stfu, but there freedom of speech is as important as anyone elses and its my personal choice to avoid I&Is posts because of there conduct, I accept as a consequence of that choice that I may miss out on something interesting I&I has to say as an acceptable loss when opposed to the alternative of silencing the spite rained in on him.

4) I'd just like to in public and for the record reiterate my support of the forums team on the subject of free speech. It is this forums biggest selling point by a country mile, it is the only reason in fact I still read and occasionally post here.

In the same vein, I would also like to to applaud the people who have discussed there problems with pedophilia here, it must have taken a lot of courage to discuss this in an open forum, I totally support your right to and hope that somewhere in between the abuse and what have you, that you have found some useful support and help.

5) And heres the rub, all of you that want freedom of speech curtailed because you find a topic distasteful, there is really only one topic I find distasteful and the contention that freedom of speech should be curtailed because it may cause someone may be offended. so where does that leave us, you are not allowed to call for freedom of speech to be restricted and I'm not allowed to speak about your hot button topic. Or my distaste is lesser than your distaste, so I should not speak and you can. Or maybe and know this is just crazy, maybe we could all agree to act respectfully to all contributors to the forum allowing them the same latitude to discuss we all have and were there is strong personal feelings involved, maybe, maybe just maybe formulate a reasoned counter position instead of just crying out for the ban hammer or actions that would literally destroy this forums almost unique selling point.

PAX

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07-07-2013, 09:50 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
No one wants free speech curtailed.

All the victims want is that the thread gets moved to where it is obvious that they are stepping into a landmine and not some scientific or newsy thread.

Also, moving it into a section where google does not index, it will remove the fact that TTA is now ranking tops for pedos, and that the thread is giving the pedo site a HUGE boost in google rankings because of the links therein. I explained how that works in detail a bit earlier in this thread.

How does that curtail free speech? It doesn't, but it allows anyone and everyone who wants to talk about it to do so freely without seriously damaging the numerous victims that are on this forum.

Victims have free speech too, but every time one of us says something in that thread , we get attacked for undermining free speech.

What is so hard about an "enter at your own risk" warning? How does that curtail free speech?

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07-07-2013, 10:05 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 09:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  No one wants free speech curtailed.

All the victims want is that the thread gets moved to where it is obvious that they are stepping into a landmine and not some scientific or newsy thread.

Also, moving it into a section where google does not index, it will remove the fact that TTA is now ranking tops for pedos, and that the thread is giving the pedo site a HUGE boost in google rankings because of the links therein. I explained how that works in detail a bit earlier in this thread.

How does that curtail free speech? It doesn't, but it allows anyone and everyone who wants to talk about it to do so freely without seriously damaging the numerous victims that are on this forum.

Victims have free speech too, but every time one of us says something in that thread , we get attacked for undermining free speech.

What is so hard about an "enter at your own risk" warning? How does that curtail free speech?

Sorry to interrupt.

But I think my experience can be used as an example. You are on my ignore list because I thought you were way beyond an unbiased position when we discussed free speech in China in a "Welcome to China" thread.

So in this thread your posts didn't bother me at all because they didn't show up (except only a notice that you posted something).

Yet somehow I chose to view your post and then here is this reply. And I am totally aware that you can attack back with almost anything you want (porn not allowed). If I choose to view your replies and get offended, I am the only person to blame for my unhappiness. And it is definitely ridiculous for me to ask for the banning of you.

This is what's called free speech, isn't it?

If you and Chas are bothered by I&I's posts, it's your bad to have chosen to view these posts and you are still free to put him on the ignore list.

That's my suggestion to you, and you are welcome.

PS. You are free to say almost anything you want (porn not allowed). And I will try my best to curtail my curiosity not to view your reply.

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07-07-2013, 10:08 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 10:05 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(07-07-2013 09:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  No one wants free speech curtailed.

All the victims want is that the thread gets moved to where it is obvious that they are stepping into a landmine and not some scientific or newsy thread.

Also, moving it into a section where google does not index, it will remove the fact that TTA is now ranking tops for pedos, and that the thread is giving the pedo site a HUGE boost in google rankings because of the links therein. I explained how that works in detail a bit earlier in this thread.

How does that curtail free speech? It doesn't, but it allows anyone and everyone who wants to talk about it to do so freely without seriously damaging the numerous victims that are on this forum.

Victims have free speech too, but every time one of us says something in that thread , we get attacked for undermining free speech.

What is so hard about an "enter at your own risk" warning? How does that curtail free speech?

Sorry to interrupt.

But I think my experience can be used as an example. You are on my ignore list because I thought you were way beyond an unbiased position when we discussed free speech in China in a "Welcome to China" thread.

So in this thread your posts didn't bother me at all because they didn't show up (except only a notice that you posted something).

Yet somehow I chose to view your post and here is this reply. And I am totally aware that you can attack back with almost anything you want (porn not allowed). If I choose to view your replies and get offended, I am the only person to blame for my unhappiness. And it is definitely ridiculous for me to ask for the banning of you.

This is what's called free speech, isn't it?

If you and Chas are bothered by I&I's posts, it's your bad to have chosen to view these posts and you are still free to put him on the ignore list.

That's my suggestion to you, and you are welcome.

PS. You are free to say almost anything you want (porn not allowed). And I will try my best to curtail my curiosity not to view your reply.

Wow, I don't even remember commenting in that thread... I hope that whatever I said didn't offend you, it was certainly not my intention.

And - the current topic has nothing at all to do with IandI?

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07-07-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 10:08 AM)Dom Wrote:  Wow, I don't even remember commenting in that thread... I hope that whatever I said didn't offend you, it was certainly not my intention.

And - the current topic has nothing at all to do with IandI?

I thought Chas' OP was still under discussion.

My bad.

Although it's a bit late, yet I still want to recommend the Ignore List function.

And you don't need a special tag to label some thread as "Troll Warning" or "Maybe Disruptive". You can put those you don't like on ignore and watch out not to click on those threads by someone you don't like.

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07-07-2013, 10:21 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 10:16 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(07-07-2013 10:08 AM)Dom Wrote:  Wow, I don't even remember commenting in that thread... I hope that whatever I said didn't offend you, it was certainly not my intention.

And - the current topic has nothing at all to do with IandI?

I thought Chas' OP was still under discussion.

My bad.

Although it's a bit late, yet I still want to recommend the Ignore List function.

And you don't need a special tag to label some thread as "Troll Warning" or "Maybe Disruptive". You can put those you don't like on ignore and watch out not to click on those threads by someone you don't like.

Hey, I just looked through 18 pages worth of the thread, and I never posted there at all.

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07-07-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 09:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  No one wants free speech curtailed.

All the victims want is that the thread gets moved to where it is obvious that they are stepping into a landmine and not some scientific or newsy thread.

Also, moving it into a section where google does not index, it will remove the fact that TTA is now ranking tops for pedos, and that the thread is giving the pedo site a HUGE boost in google rankings because of the links therein. I explained how that works in detail a bit earlier in this thread.

How does that curtail free speech? It doesn't, but it allows anyone and everyone who wants to talk about it to do so freely without seriously damaging the numerous victims that are on this forum.

Victims have free speech too, but every time one of us says something in that thread , we get attacked for undermining free speech.

What is so hard about an "enter at your own risk" warning? How does that curtail free speech?

Moving threads into a "private" sub forum is curtailing free speech it is say this topic must be discussed here, you are not free to discuss it public. You cant have free speech and demand that some speech is not free.

I very much disapprove of the notion of moving such threads to a sub forum to hide it from google, if the open discussion of any topic is going to bring bad press from theist groups looking to hate on us then attempting to cover it up, will only legitimise and add strength to any any points they put forward on the subject. The fact that related topics are related is not in and of itself advertising. If theres a linky to pedo site, if that pedo site is legal I see no problems, if the site has illegal content I support prosecution of the people responsible.

It curtails it I'll say again, because it limits what can be said where. you are as free not to read a post you don't want to as everyone else is to read it.

Victims do have the right to voice there objections, and where I am "attacking" you for undermining free speech, it is where you are undermining free speech. Also I notice that although I have stated that I find the idea of your stance to be the only thing I find distasteful (ie the curtailment of free speech) you have not seen that as a reason to not discuss it with me, if my feelings are not a matter you feel should be respected, why then advocate that your feelings on this issue matter. Is that your feelings trump mine, that I am wrong and you are right? And for the record, I support the victims rights to freely discuss there issues and maybe find support and solace from the community here to exactly the same extent that I support the potential abusers right to do likewise.

"What is so hard about an "enter at your own risk" warning? How does that curtail free speech?"

What is so hard about allowing everyone the right to discuss any topic openly. I'll tell you what isnt hard, discrimination, hatred, marginilising those we disapprove, those are the easiest things in the world.

Although you frame this as a defence of the victim, you do not discuss for even a syllable the problems faced by victims, although you say this is not about curtailing freedom of speech your post actively advocates restricting it.

So, if you wish to highlight the problems of victims, discuss that, if you dont want to restrict freedom of speech dont advocate for censure. If you want me to respect your feelings of distaste, at least acknowledge mine. Notice I dont say move them to a sub forum, stop talking about your stuff, all I require is some reciprocity, you dont want pedos (or worse yet those struggling with the desire and looking for help) to have access to free debate because you find it hurtful, fine thats a point of view. But to claim your "feelings" should hold primacy in the debate and not acknowledging mine on the issue of free speech does little to strengthen your point and has smack to me of the hypocritical .

Lastly, your getting pretty close to what I would consider spam, you are continually reposting the same view over and over again, you are not expanding upon your point merely repeating it. Again, knock yourself out, my feelings on what constitute spam arent really the issue, Im sure if the mods saw it as such they'd act.
See I undermine my own view there, because my objection is retorical and used only to highlight the inadequacy of what I consider spam to what the mods should.

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