So, whose forum is this, anyway?
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07-07-2013, 10:39 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 10:32 AM)Humakt Wrote:  
(07-07-2013 09:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  No one wants free speech curtailed.

All the victims want is that the thread gets moved to where it is obvious that they are stepping into a landmine and not some scientific or newsy thread.

Also, moving it into a section where google does not index, it will remove the fact that TTA is now ranking tops for pedos, and that the thread is giving the pedo site a HUGE boost in google rankings because of the links therein. I explained how that works in detail a bit earlier in this thread.

How does that curtail free speech? It doesn't, but it allows anyone and everyone who wants to talk about it to do so freely without seriously damaging the numerous victims that are on this forum.

Victims have free speech too, but every time one of us says something in that thread , we get attacked for undermining free speech.

What is so hard about an "enter at your own risk" warning? How does that curtail free speech?

Moving threads into a "private" sub forum is curtailing free speech it is say this topic must be discussed here, you are not free to discuss it public. You cant have free speech and demand that some speech is not free.

I very much disapprove of the notion of moving such threads to a sub forum to hide it from google, if the open discussion of any topic is going to bring bad press from theist groups looking to hate on us then attempting to cover it up, will only legitimise and add strength to any any points they put forward on the subject. The fact that related topics are related is not in and of itself advertising. If theres a linky to pedo site, if that pedo site is legal I see no problems, if the site has illegal content I support prosecution of the people responsible.

It curtails it I'll say again, because it limits what can be said where. you are as free not to read a post you don't want to as everyone else is to read it.

Victims do have the right to voice there objections, and where I am "attacking" you for undermining free speech, it is where you are undermining free speech. Also I notice that although I have stated that I find the idea of your stance to be the only thing I find distasteful (ie the curtailment of free speech) you have not seen that as a reason to not discuss it with me, if my feelings are not a matter you feel should be respected, why then advocate that your feelings on this issue matter. Is that your feelings trump mine, that I am wrong and you are right? And for the record, I support the victims rights to freely discuss there issues and maybe find support and solace from the community here to exactly the same extent that I support the potential abusers right to do likewise.

"What is so hard about an "enter at your own risk" warning? How does that curtail free speech?"

What is so hard about allowing everyone the right to discuss any topic openly. I'll tell you what isnt hard, discrimination, hatred, marginilising those we disapprove, those are the easiest things in the world.

Although you frame this as a defence of the victim, you do not discuss for even a syllable the problems faced by victims, although you say this is not about curtailing freedom of speech your post actively advocates restricting it.

So, if you wish to highlight the problems of victims, discuss that, if you dont want to restrict freedom of speech dont advocate for censure. If you want me to respect your feelings of distaste, at least acknowledge mine. Notice I dont say move them to a sub forum, stop talking about your stuff, all I require is some reciprocity, you dont want pedos (or worse yet those struggling with the desire and looking for help) to have access to free debate because you find it hurtful, fine thats a point of view. But to claim your "feelings" should hold primacy in the debate and not acknowledging mine on the issue of free speech does little to strengthen your point and has smack to me of the hypocritical .

Lastly, your getting pretty close to what I would consider spam, you are continually reposting the same view over and over again, you are not expanding upon your point merely repeating it. Again, knock yourself out, my feelings on what constitute spam arent really the issue, Im sure if the mods saw it as such they'd act.
See I undermine my own view there, because my objection is retorical and used only to highlight the inadequacy of what I consider spam to what the mods should.

PAX

In that case you can not curtail the victims right to speak up. I have every right to voice my opinion in any thread without being told that I am curtailing other people's free speech. Either it's for everyone or it's not free speech.

People react differently to abuse, most curl up in a corner and bleed. It has turned me into a feisty bitch. I take no shit from no one. It is my way of living with what happened to me - I may have been 4 years old and powerless then but today I am all grown up and I am damn well going to speak up for myself and for all the people that are hurt the same way.

We have lost a great number of people because no one was allowed to counter the arguments the pedos made without being attacked for curtailing their free speech. Fuck that. I have at a minimum the same rights they do, and I am damn well going to use them.

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07-07-2013, 11:04 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2013 11:09 AM by Humakt.)
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 10:39 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(07-07-2013 10:32 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Moving threads into a "private" sub forum is curtailing free speech it is say this topic must be discussed here, you are not free to discuss it public. You cant have free speech and demand that some speech is not free.

I very much disapprove of the notion of moving such threads to a sub forum to hide it from google, if the open discussion of any topic is going to bring bad press from theist groups looking to hate on us then attempting to cover it up, will only legitimise and add strength to any any points they put forward on the subject. The fact that related topics are related is not in and of itself advertising. If theres a linky to pedo site, if that pedo site is legal I see no problems, if the site has illegal content I support prosecution of the people responsible.

It curtails it I'll say again, because it limits what can be said where. you are as free not to read a post you don't want to as everyone else is to read it.

Victims do have the right to voice there objections, and where I am "attacking" you for undermining free speech, it is where you are undermining free speech. Also I notice that although I have stated that I find the idea of your stance to be the only thing I find distasteful (ie the curtailment of free speech) you have not seen that as a reason to not discuss it with me, if my feelings are not a matter you feel should be respected, why then advocate that your feelings on this issue matter. Is that your feelings trump mine, that I am wrong and you are right? And for the record, I support the victims rights to freely discuss there issues and maybe find support and solace from the community here to exactly the same extent that I support the potential abusers right to do likewise.

"What is so hard about an "enter at your own risk" warning? How does that curtail free speech?"

What is so hard about allowing everyone the right to discuss any topic openly. I'll tell you what isnt hard, discrimination, hatred, marginilising those we disapprove, those are the easiest things in the world.

Although you frame this as a defence of the victim, you do not discuss for even a syllable the problems faced by victims, although you say this is not about curtailing freedom of speech your post actively advocates restricting it.

So, if you wish to highlight the problems of victims, discuss that, if you dont want to restrict freedom of speech dont advocate for censure. If you want me to respect your feelings of distaste, at least acknowledge mine. Notice I dont say move them to a sub forum, stop talking about your stuff, all I require is some reciprocity, you dont want pedos (or worse yet those struggling with the desire and looking for help) to have access to free debate because you find it hurtful, fine thats a point of view. But to claim your "feelings" should hold primacy in the debate and not acknowledging mine on the issue of free speech does little to strengthen your point and has smack to me of the hypocritical .

Lastly, your getting pretty close to what I would consider spam, you are continually reposting the same view over and over again, you are not expanding upon your point merely repeating it. Again, knock yourself out, my feelings on what constitute spam arent really the issue, Im sure if the mods saw it as such they'd act.
See I undermine my own view there, because my objection is retorical and used only to highlight the inadequacy of what I consider spam to what the mods should.

PAX

In that case you can not curtail the victims right to speak up. I have every right to voice my opinion in any thread without being told that I am curtailing other people's free speech. Either it's for everyone or it's not free speech.

People react differently to abuse, most curl up in a corner and bleed. It has turned me into a feisty bitch. I take no shit from no one. It is my way of living with what happened to me - I may have been 4 years old and powerless then but today I am all grown up and I am damn well going to speak up for myself and for all the people that are hurt the same way.

We have lost a great number of people because no one was allowed to counter the arguments the pedos made without being attacked for curtailing their free speech. Fuck that. I have at a minimum the same rights they do, and I am damn well going to use them.

Did I tell you to stop talking about it, or did I specifically say you could and should, I think the latter. Do I agree that you have the right to voice your opinion yes, does freedom of speech mean others cant disagree no.

Just because some object to your stance and say so strengthens freedom of speech not as you would have it detracts from it. You speak your peace I speak mine, I openly invite you to speak further and invite any other interested party to contribute.
You have accused me of curtailing your right to advocate your view, please quote where I have done so. You say I advocate that the victims should not have a voice, please again quote where I do so.

I support you completely in your attempts to speak for your own victimhood and the the other victims, more power to your elbow. What I dont support is your solution, which infringes on my rights to free and open debate, attempts to deny the same consideration to others and is when it comes down it a subject I feel as strongly about as you feel about yours, big difference I support you, you wish to undermine me.

If people, I hasten to add not me, have said you should be silent to protect the freedom of speech of others then they are fucking idiots who clearly do not understand freedom of speech.

Speak, make yourself heard do so with my full support, even on the subject of curtailing freedom of speech you should speak and express your view. However, do not think for a second that your right to freedom of speech is the same as the right to not be counter argued or that people should respect what you say without recourse to object, because an objection infringes your rights. It does not, you are free to say, they are free to say, I am free to say. None of us is free from the reaction in others of what we say, nor do any of us have the right to silence such dissent.

I'll say again, if you want to discuss the impact of abuse thats one thing, if you want to discuss limiting freedom of speech that is a completely seperate thing. I voice objection to your stance on freedom of speech, but I support your right to voice it, where others have no clue and tell you shut up because of others rights to free speech I condemn, I hope even if your not going to take the time to deal with what Im saying in a point by point basis, you will at least have the decency of not lumping me me in with them.

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07-07-2013, 11:10 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
OK, either some people don't understand free-speech or they are deliberately misrepresenting it.

Just for the record;

If you post an opinion and are heavily criticised - Not a restriction of free-speech

If you post an opinion and are personally attacked - Not a restriction of free-speech

If you post an opinion and are relentlessly hounded because of it - Not a restriction of free-speech (though maybe spam)

If you post an opinion and have that opinion forcibly silenced (such as by the removing of the post by mods) - A restriction of free-speech

If you post an opinion and are forcibly prevented from posting further opinions (such as by a ban or post restriction) - A restriction of free-speech

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07-07-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
Ladies....You know I get whats going on, and you know I deal with things differently than you do. But it's obvious the care factor is zero here. (Thats been an abuse problem for a long time sadly)

Lets stick to the personal issues form thread that Moms so kindly created with this. No point in wasting your breath here. *hugs*
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07-07-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 11:04 AM)Humakt Wrote:  
(07-07-2013 10:39 AM)Dom Wrote:  In that case you can not curtail the victims right to speak up. I have every right to voice my opinion in any thread without being told that I am curtailing other people's free speech. Either it's for everyone or it's not free speech.

People react differently to abuse, most curl up in a corner and bleed. It has turned me into a feisty bitch. I take no shit from no one. It is my way of living with what happened to me - I may have been 4 years old and powerless then but today I am all grown up and I am damn well going to speak up for myself and for all the people that are hurt the same way.

We have lost a great number of people because no one was allowed to counter the arguments the pedos made without being attacked for curtailing their free speech. Fuck that. I have at a minimum the same rights they do, and I am damn well going to use them.

Did I tell you to stop talking about it, or did I specifically say you could and should, I think the latter. Do I agree that you have the right to voice your opinion yes, does freedom of speech mean others cant disagree no.

Just because some object to your stance and say so strengthens freedom of speech not as you would have it detracts from it. You speak your peace I speak mine, I openly invite you to speak further and invite any other interested party to contribute.
You have accused me of curtailing your right to advocate your view, please quote where I have done so. You say I advocate that the victims should not have a voice, please again quote where I do so.

I support you completely in your attempts to speak for your own victimhood and the the other victims, more power to your elbow. What I dont support is your solution, which infringes on my rights to free and open debate, attempts to deny the same consideration to others and is when it comes down it a subject I feel as strongly about as you feel about yours, big difference I support you, you wish to undermine me.

If people, I hasten to add not me, have said you should be silent to protect the freedom of speech of others then they are fucking idiots who clearly do not understand freedom of speech.

Speak, make yourself heard do so with my full support, even on the subject of curtailing freedom of speech you should speak and express your view. However, do not think for a second that your right to freedom of speech is the same as the right to not be counter argued or that people should respect what you say without recourse to object, because an objection infringes your rights. It does not, you are free to say, they are free to say, I am free to say. None of us is free from the reaction in others of what we say, nor do any of us have the right to silence such dissent.

I'll say again, if you want to discuss the impact of abuse thats one thing, if you want to discuss that is a completely seperate thing. I voice objection to your stance on freedom of speech, but I support your right to voice it, where others have no clue and tell you shut up because of others rights to free speech I condemn, I hope even if your not going to take the time to deal with what Im saying in a point by point basis, you will at least have the decency of not lumping me me in with them.

No, you didn't. But just about every victim who dared speak up in that thread was chased off by being accused of depriving the pedos of free speech.

People have left so they can curl up in their bed and try to heal.

That includes Deep, our site admin, who was viciously attacked when he lost his cool in that thread because - he is a victim and all the shit came bubbling to the top.

The handful who remain - look at the support section.

I think that it is irresponsible of admin to not give a shit when a good portion of it's members is deeply hurt by something and for refusing to at least make it so that victims do not stumble into that discussion thinking it was what you would expect in an atheist forum - something scientific or newsy.

Please read the thread in the support section (breaking the silence).

I also think it irresponsible to allow pedos to use the TTA forum as a platform to launch a big, successful SEO campaign for their own site, drawing hundreds or thousands of pedos to their site, where they can learn all about how to comfort a victim and offer the victim continued support.

Letting them speak for themselves is one thing. Giving them such an enormous boost in the search engine is another. I don't want to know how many more victims result from that SEO boost in the future.

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07-07-2013, 11:18 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 11:16 AM)Dom Wrote:  I also think it irresponsible to allow pedos to use the TTA forum as a platform to launch a big, successful SEO campaign for their own site, drawing hundreds or thousands of pedos to their site, where they can learn all about how to comfort a victim and offer the victim continued support.

Letting them speak for themselves is one thing. Giving them such an enormous boost in the search engine is another. I don't want to know how many more victims result from that SEO boost in the future.

If you actually have any proper evidence that that was their intention here then by all means share it. That would be a violation of the spam rule. So far it's only an assertion though.

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07-07-2013, 11:20 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 11:18 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(07-07-2013 11:16 AM)Dom Wrote:  I also think it irresponsible to allow pedos to use the TTA forum as a platform to launch a big, successful SEO campaign for their own site, drawing hundreds or thousands of pedos to their site, where they can learn all about how to comfort a victim and offer the victim continued support.

Letting them speak for themselves is one thing. Giving them such an enormous boost in the search engine is another. I don't want to know how many more victims result from that SEO boost in the future.

If you actually have any proper evidence that that was their intention here then by all means share it. That would be a violation of the spam rule. So far it's only an assertion though.

Intentionally or not, it has happened and is now a fact. TTA is now responsible for all the pedos to find this site easily. Intentions don't matter, facts do. I don't care who intended it or didn't intend it. It exists and it stands to create more victims.

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07-07-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
Dom, you are assuming people with the opposing viewpoints could have never been a victim. You imply atheists cannot deal with such a problem because their isn't protection via religious crap. Lastly, you have convinced yourself that the only way to have free-speech is to limit free-speech. I cannot bite my tongue, you need to re-evaluate objectively. You are too emotionally involved and you're using the wrong part of your brain to argue rationally.

No one is siding with the pedo, no one. No one is against any victim, but TTA would have to break it's own rules to do what many have advocated. If the rules remain unchanged the the only ruling that can be reached is that the member in question should remain with his/her posts in tact. Even if the rules were changed it would be rather unfair to punish retroactively.

I have no desire to view the thread, which is why I haven't, aside from a quick glance on the first page to see what all the fuss was about. Everyone here has the ability to choose not to look. Just because TTA allows such a thread does not equate to TTA supporting such a thread. The only thing this shows is that TTA supports a persons freedom to espouse whatever views they wish. This makes perfect sense to me. Historically atheists (and other non-main-streamers) have been silenced because their views were 'just bad'. Now that we don't have that same restriction we shouldn't try to do to others how we have been done in the past. Learn from the mistakes of others, Those who do not learn from history, and all that jazz.

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07-07-2013, 11:53 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2013 12:21 PM by Humakt.)
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 11:16 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(07-07-2013 11:04 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Did I tell you to stop talking about it, or did I specifically say you could and should, I think the latter. Do I agree that you have the right to voice your opinion yes, does freedom of speech mean others cant disagree no.

Just because some object to your stance and say so strengthens freedom of speech not as you would have it detracts from it. You speak your peace I speak mine, I openly invite you to speak further and invite any other interested party to contribute.
You have accused me of curtailing your right to advocate your view, please quote where I have done so. You say I advocate that the victims should not have a voice, please again quote where I do so.

I support you completely in your attempts to speak for your own victimhood and the the other victims, more power to your elbow. What I dont support is your solution, which infringes on my rights to free and open debate, attempts to deny the same consideration to others and is when it comes down it a subject I feel as strongly about as you feel about yours, big difference I support you, you wish to undermine me.

If people, I hasten to add not me, have said you should be silent to protect the freedom of speech of others then they are fucking idiots who clearly do not understand freedom of speech.

Speak, make yourself heard do so with my full support, even on the subject of curtailing freedom of speech you should speak and express your view. However, do not think for a second that your right to freedom of speech is the same as the right to not be counter argued or that people should respect what you say without recourse to object, because an objection infringes your rights. It does not, you are free to say, they are free to say, I am free to say. None of us is free from the reaction in others of what we say, nor do any of us have the right to silence such dissent.

I'll say again, if you want to discuss the impact of abuse thats one thing, if you want to discuss that is a completely seperate thing. I voice objection to your stance on freedom of speech, but I support your right to voice it, where others have no clue and tell you shut up because of others rights to free speech I condemn, I hope even if your not going to take the time to deal with what Im saying in a point by point basis, you will at least have the decency of not lumping me me in with them.

No, you didn't. But just about every victim who dared speak up in that thread was chased off by being accused of depriving the pedos of free speech.

People have left so they can curl up in their bed and try to heal.

That includes Deep, our site admin, who was viciously attacked when he lost his cool in that thread because - he is a victim and all the shit came bubbling to the top.

The handful who remain - look at the support section.

I think that it is irresponsible of admin to not give a shit when a good portion of it's members is deeply hurt by something and for refusing to at least make it so that victims do not stumble into that discussion thinking it was what you would expect in an atheist forum - something scientific or newsy.

Please read the thread in the support section (breaking the silence).

I also think it irresponsible to allow pedos to use the TTA forum as a platform to launch a big, successful SEO campaign for their own site, drawing hundreds or thousands of pedos to their site, where they can learn all about how to comfort a victim and offer the victim continued support.

Letting them speak for themselves is one thing. Giving them such an enormous boost in the search engine is another. I don't want to know how many more victims result from that SEO boost in the future.

Good of you to acknowledge that I am not at fault here or the focus your assertions. That people have read posts here and exercised there freedom to leave the community because there feelings have been hurt, unfortunate, that they feel the general community has turned against them even more so. Here I will speak only for myself, I have great sympathy for the victims in this case and also I feel sympathy for those you would wish to silence. But, if they have chosen to leave, they have made it themselves for whatever reason and they are of course within there rights to do so, if as you are contesting they have left not because they find it hard to deal with the topics under discussion, but because of deliberate harrassment, thats a completely different issue, if they have been harassed into leaving that would definatly constitute a violation and should be brought to the mods attension immediatly.

Personally again, I think the opposite it would be irresponsable of a mod to allow personal feelings interfere with there duties as Hughsie as said, he has taken some personal offence to comments, but will not let that sway him in his modding. As to what might expect to find in an atheist forum, Im not sure I even know what that means, maybe your limited idea of what we all should be discussing is the issue here however. Since when did atheist equate to scientific or newsy?

I may swing by and have a quick read to at least equate myself.

Letting them talk freely and openly, is naturally going to show up on search engines as search engines are primed to report on activity. So what your saying is that because they get more hits in googole we should silence them is no different to saying they should not be allowed to talk.

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07-07-2013, 12:03 PM
RE: So, whose forum is this, anyway?
(07-07-2013 11:53 AM)Humakt Wrote:  
(07-07-2013 11:16 AM)Dom Wrote:  No, you didn't. But just about every victim who dared speak up in that thread was chased off by being accused of depriving the pedos of free speech.

People have left so they can curl up in their bed and try to heal.

That includes Deep, our site admin, who was viciously attacked when he lost his cool in that thread because - he is a victim and all the shit came bubbling to the top.

The handful who remain - look at the support section.

I think that it is irresponsible of admin to not give a shit when a good portion of it's members is deeply hurt by something and for refusing to at least make it so that victims do not stumble into that discussion thinking it was what you would expect in an atheist forum - something scientific or newsy.

Please read the thread in the support section (breaking the silence).

I also think it irresponsible to allow pedos to use the TTA forum as a platform to launch a big, successful SEO campaign for their own site, drawing hundreds or thousands of pedos to their site, where they can learn all about how to comfort a victim and offer the victim continued support.

Letting them speak for themselves is one thing. Giving them such an enormous boost in the search engine is another. I don't want to know how many more victims result from that SEO boost in the future.

Good of you to acknowledge that I am not at fault here or the focus your assertions. That people have read posts here and exercised there freedom to leave the community because there feelings have been hurt, unfortunate, that they feel the general community has turned against them even more so. Here I will speak only for myself, I have great sympathy for the victims in this case and also I feel sympathy for those you would wish to silence. But, if they have chosen to leave, they have made it themselves for whatever reason and they are of course within there rights to do so, if as you are contesting they have left not because they find it hard to deal with the topics under discussion, but because of deliberate harrassment, thats a completely different issue, if they have been harassed into leaving that would definatly constitute a violation and should be brought to the mods attension immediatly.

Personally again, I think the opposite it would be irresponsable of a mod to allow personal feelings interfere with there duties as Hughsie as said, he has taken some personal offence to comments, but will not let that sway him in his modding. As to what might expect to find in an atheist forum, Im not sure I even know what that means, maybe your limited idea of what we all should be discussing is the issue here however. Since when did atheist equate to scientific or newsy?

I may swing by and have a quick read to at least equate myself.

Letting thdem talk freely and openly, in naturally going to show up on search engines as search engines are primed to report on activity. So what your saying is that because they get more hits in googole we should silence them is no different to saying they should not be allowed to talk.

They haven't posted but they haven't left. They are hanging in the "breaking the silence" thread in the support section. People have been sending me PMs because they are worried about posting there with them reading.

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