Society And Physical Abuse
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29-05-2014, 03:00 PM
RE: Society And Physical Abuse
(29-05-2014 02:56 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 02:48 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  That is assuming there is actually pay discrimination which economist Thomas Sowell has actually shown not to exist in Economics: Facts and Fallacies and Basic Economics. For a quick breakdown of his case you can read it here.

Yeah, not so much.

"If we control for the discriminating factors, there's no discrimination!"

Hmm.

How can you compare women and men completely blindfolded to biological realities like pregnancies and women's preference for white collar work over blue collar work and call it discrimination?

That's like saying younger adults are discriminated against because they earn less than older adults.

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29-05-2014, 03:02 PM
RE: Society And Physical Abuse
(29-05-2014 02:48 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 01:54 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  How does income equality hurt women?

Income equality doesnt hurt women. Legislating it however does hurt them in the job market.

Let me explain.
Let's pretend that there is ubiqutous discrimination of women in the workforce. Women looking for employment have to negotiate for lower wages than male counterparts (loosely defined, although Stanford Economist Thomas Sowell shows in Economics: Fact And Fallacies that when filtering for never married and childless women and men with similar qualifications and experience there is actually a higher wage for women than men)

So let's say that the employers who were a little sexist but cared more about their profits hired some women (because they would negotiate lower wages than men) and the really sexist employers just completely barred women from working with them.

Then lets assume it's legislated that women have to be paid the same as their male peers or else the employer will pay a fine or whatnot.

The really sexist employers will have no better motivation to hire women and the not so sexist employers that hired women in the past because they would be cheaper now really have no incentive to prefer them over men and will hire less of them leaving more women unemployed.

That is assuming there is actually pay discrimination which economist Thomas Sowell has actually shown not to exist in Economics: Facts and Fallacies and Basic Economics. For a quick breakdown of his case you can read it here.

I find many people have a hard time doing the right thing, until there is a law forcing people to comply. (seatbelt and child safety seat laws might be an example)

I feel this is also true of corporations. (That's why I get a bit nervous when some talk of closing down the EPA)

Who says sexist employers are hiring women anyway -- with or without a law saying they must pay equally?

The idea being the super-sexist employers might get rid of their female employees -- well I dunno, seems to me there are already legal remedies in place for that.


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29-05-2014, 03:06 PM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2014 03:11 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Society And Physical Abuse
(29-05-2014 03:00 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  How can you compare women and men completely blindfolded to biological realities like pregnancies and women's preference for white collar work over blue collar work and call it discrimination?

I didn't. Nice try though?

(29-05-2014 03:00 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  That's like saying younger adults are discriminated against because they earn less than older adults.

Not really.

Hell, even the figure directly cited in the link you provided flat-out states that adjusting for some externalities - including the hard-to-ignore "women are typically not educated as often in such highly paid fields as [examples]", which is certainly not a sign of hiring bias but absolutely reflective of latent societal bias; this is later re-affirmed by reference to "systemic socio-cultural factors", ie what I just said - the "gap" closes to 91% instead of 77% (for childless women vs single men). I dunno, but that doesn't sound like "doesn't exist" to me.

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29-05-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: Society And Physical Abuse
(29-05-2014 03:06 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Hell, even the figure directly cited in the link you provided flat-out states that adjusting for some externalities - including the hard-to-ignore "women are typically not educated as often in such highly paid fields as [examples]", which is certainly not a sign of hiring bias but absolutely reflective of latent societal bias; this is later re-affirmed by reference to "systemic socio-cultural factors", ie what I just said - the "gap" closes to 91% instead of 77% (for childless women vs single men). I dunno, but that doesn't sound like "doesn't exist" to me.

But that 9% difference is still no indicator of discrimination in my opinion. How is the fact that women in high positions are not as educated as men a societal bias?

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30-05-2014, 02:11 AM
RE: Society And Physical Abuse
(29-05-2014 11:24 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 11:20 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except the term has been Co Opted by the fringe group and is now what everyone thinks when they hear it.

And that bugs the shit out of me. I am a proud feminist, I pioneered in business and overcame all kinds of odds. Except that now it's all crap because some women who are into misandry dragged feminism into the dirt.

Bugs me to no end!

See this is the face of modern feminism that most people see:




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30-05-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: Society And Physical Abuse
(29-05-2014 03:02 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I find many people have a hard time doing the right thing, until there is a law forcing people to comply. (seatbelt and child safety seat laws might be an example)

I feel this is also true of corporations. (That's why I get a bit nervous when some talk of closing down the EPA)

Who says sexist employers are hiring women anyway -- with or without a law saying they must pay equally?

The idea being the super-sexist employers might get rid of their female employees -- well I dunno, seems to me there are already legal remedies in place for that.

It's expensive to be sexist, or homophobic or racist (or a combination thereof) in business. Minimum wage laws were passed in the American south in the early 1900's and in Apartheid South Africa to get rid of the competition of black employees in the job market. Even though attempts to legsilate equal pay for women have a much more noble motivation, it is going to help currently employed women but the impact on future female job seekers is neglected and desregarded. This is likely to be the trade-off involved.

As far as corporation, they are no less or more moral than individuals are on average. They work with incentives. They are seldom concerned with externalities unless people are watching. You are right the EPA is important because of this.

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30-05-2014, 10:10 AM
RE: Society And Physical Abuse
I'm getting confused here, when you guys say "EPA" are you refering the the Environmental Protection Agency ?

If so, what do they have to do with equal rights/ feminism Huh

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
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30-05-2014, 10:35 AM
RE: Society And Physical Abuse
(30-05-2014 10:10 AM)War Horse Wrote:  I'm getting confused here, when you guys say "EPA" are you refering the the Environmental Protection Agency ?

If so, what do they have to do with equal rights/ feminism Huh

I was saying that people rarely do the right thing on their own without being compelled to do so by a law. It's sad but painfully true. How many people wore seat belts before it was a law? How many did after a year? Equal pay for men and women certainly is still an issue in 2014. I see it as other laws that have been enacted to ensure public safety or fairness. Like the Americans with Disabilities Act and discrimination laws.

I mentioned the EPA as an aside -- I become a bit nervous when big corporations call for it to be done away with. To me it's like saying "just trust us" we won't pollute that river (or whatever). "Just trust us, we pay women and men the same for the same job."

I don't trust companies to do what is right anymore than I trust regular people do the right thing all the time.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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30-05-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Society And Physical Abuse
(30-05-2014 10:35 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't trust companies to do what is right anymore than I trust regular people do the right thing all the time.

I think very few people would to be honest, except perhaps for Luminon.

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30-05-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Society And Physical Abuse
(29-05-2014 11:48 AM)Dom Wrote:  Well then, i wasted my time for the last several decades. Angry Nothing good came from it. Sad I'm just a man hating bitch.

Yeah, we know. It's just part of your charm. Drinking Beverage

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