Sociopaths a product of evolution?
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04-04-2012, 01:27 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(03-04-2012 08:14 PM)Dom Wrote:  A more refined version of the psychopath, and also more frequently encountered and often misdiagnosed (and completely untreatable) is the malignant Narcissist. This is not your person who is just full of themselves, like we think of a narcissist primping in the mirror. This is a very sinister person.

They are frequent enough for all of us to have met at least one in our life. And they are a nasty piece of work, but may be very charming to you.

I had the distinct displeasure of knowing one of these people very well. I caused me to do a lot of research. There are a lot of theories about where this character formation comes from. The one that made the most sense is that there is a developmental issue in infancy, at the time when the kid starts to comprehend that it is not the center of the world. Malignant narcissists (and psychopaths, they are psychopaths) never get beyond that. To them, the world is a puppet theatre and they hold the strings. If a puppet fails to perform as desired it just gets discarded. They have no emotions of their own except for self pity, they observe others and mimic.

Most theories have it that there is a malformation in the brain that lays the ground work for this. This then needs to be reinforced by something that happens in infancy to them, something that would have no further repercussions for a normal child. It takes the two to make a psychopath/sociopath/malignant narcissist.

These people lie all the time. Everything is an act, since there are no actual emotions, no love, and actually no hate. There is rage, lots of rage when manipulating people fails. This is never the malignant narcissists fault, it is the other persons fault.

Since the Narcissist realizes early on that there is something amiss - others have all these strange reactions (emotions) he learns that life is acting. So, everything that comes out of their mouths is an act, and a lie. They love the power of manipulation, that they can mimic any type of emotion and get you to act in a certain way in response. They can choose you as their "golden child" and smother you with benevolence and if at any time you make a misstep in their eyes, they will tear you down and destroy you if they can. They don't care much one way or the other until they get old and it becomes difficult to find people to feed on. They do need to feed on people, by themselves they are an empty shell.

Everyone should know how to recognize one of these as they will try to destroy you in one way or another, sooner or later. And there are a lot of them out and about. They stay just this side of the law.

A rejected or exposed malignant narcissist is very, very dangerous.

I'm concerned about the interchanging of terms.
Narcissism is on the low end of the sociopathy spectrum. (1.0 on the sociopathy spectrum).
Malignant Narcissism is in the middle (3.0) of the psychopathy spectrum, and is by no means refined.

The traits you went on to describe are a precise fit for Borderline Personality Disorder (3.5 on the sociopathy spectrum).
In other words, the person must be a grandiose show-off who delights in public displays of humiliation and cruelty
to merit the term Malignant Narcissist, and even then there are several other factors to consider before they can
be diagnosed as such. They are most certainly not laid-back, refined, and acting all the time. Again, that's a BPD.

This line is especially troubling:

"...takes the two to make a psychopath/sociopath/malignant narcissist."


...because the implication is that a psychopath and a sociopath are the same animal.
First of all a Malignant Narcissist is a psychopath, and secondly,
psychopathy and sociopathy are subsets of ASPD (AntiSocial Personality Disorder).

Yes, there a lot of theories about the biological origins of sociopaths, but again no conclusive scientific evidence.
In other words, no evidence for nature/nurture. This is why the theory of "genetic mutant/evolutionary leap" occurred to me.

Now, lest ye conclude I'm talking out of my arse Rolleyes ,
I'll switch gears here and reveal my sociopath credentials:

This subject is absolutely personal to me, for I have twice in my life been victimized by these monsters.
Here's what happened with one of them:
I'm a single father of a beautiful 8-year-old boy who's mother is a full-blown sociopath.
The evil lengths she went to, to try and destroy me and my son are unspeakable.
It's unimaginable unless you've experienced it.

YEARS and YEARS of this:

court dates, court dates, cops, cops, turning family against me, custody battles, restraining orders, cops, cops, cops, court dates, court dates, court dates, anger management classes, cops, cops, cops, framed for drug dealing, cops, cops, cops, restraining orders, depression, drinking, cops, cops, court dates, court dates, lies, lies, lies, custody hearings, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars down the drain, family turns against you, friends don't believe you, NO ONE believes you, lots of drinking, depression, depression, the monster disappearing with my son for weeks on end, being told nothing can be done because she's the mother, and no custody agreement has been decided on by a judge, cops, cops, cops, court dates, court dates, worrying, worrying, worrying, so much worrying, becoming very intimate with the "dragging-ass" that is the justice system, lies, lies, lies, boss doesn't believe you, fired from jobs, abuse allegations, no escape, no chance in hell of escaping, trapped in a living nightmare with a batshit demon, thoughts of suicide, an immeasurable amount of tears, develop what I can only describe as PTSD, it continues on undiagnosed, cops, cops, cops, when the doorbell rings you want to blow your brains out because it's NEVER something good, lies, lies, court dates, arrest warrants, no way out of the madness, more cops, she's insane and evil but everyone hates and blames YOU, cops, court dates, depression, restraining orders, cops know you on a first-name basis, orders of protection, arrest warrants, you seriously consider murder for the first time in your life, cops, cops, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies...

...but I persevered, I survived. And I learned something.
A sociopath does fear one thing: exposure

After doing a PhD's worth of research, I discovered that the problem wasn't that she was crazy.
She wasn't/isn't crazy.
The problem is that she isn't human.

Once she realized (really realized) that I knew what she was, and that her moves were now predictable,
she knew she had been rendered powerless. She couldn't hurt us anymore because we refused to respond
to her game-playing. We stopped caring about her "zany antics" and when that happened, we were no
longer of any use to her. Yes

One interesting trait was the complete inability to associate actions with consequences.
If I went to her house, and she stabbed me to death, she would be furious with me for staining her carpet.

It was a horrifying chapter of our lives. I cringe at the thought of someone else going through it.
I suppose one way to handle this plague of locusts, because that's what they are,
is to force MRI scans on everyone. These monsters can be detected that way.
The we just... exterminate.
One can dream.Clap

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04-04-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
I do believe my younger brother is a delusional sociopath[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif].[/font]

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04-04-2012, 05:32 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
Wow, Quidsane. That's really fucked up! Shocking

As I've been interested in psychology for quite a while now (and have read a few books on the subject) I can totally empathize with you (pardon the pun). As I stated in my post I've had a brush with one of these fucked up individuals but luckily nothing like yourself.
I can't even imagine the pain and heartache that loony bitch has caused you Dodgy .
The worst part is they LIKE doing this to people as all they want is to 'win'. Most people really have no idea how much suffering they cause throughout society as these sub-human fuck-ups are so clever and by the time they actually realise what's happened, it's too late and their lives have been ruined.

Hopefully one day it will be detected as early as in the first trimester (in pregnancy) and can be dealt with then and there!!!

Until then, my friend, unfortunately many people, like yourself, will suffer at the hands of these 'aliens'.

I hope your life has improved exponentially since you have wiped your hands of her Yes

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04-04-2012, 06:06 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(04-04-2012 07:48 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 06:06 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  Natural Born Killers! Big Grin
Yup, I know some! I've met a few diagnosed, and I'm pretty sure I know of one that is creepy and should be diagnosed. Gun hoarding, manipulating creeper. *shudders*

When you think of animals that are way back on the evolution chain (alligators, sharks) and their lack of empathy or connection, that's what a psychopath reminds me of. It could have its advantages for sure, but because I have the emotion of fear and empathy, it scares the crap out of me and isn't a way of life I'd want to live! However, like mentioned, those are the animals that have lived a much longer time than our species.
There's a difference between Sociopathic and Psychopathic behavior. Sociopaths are not totally void of all emotions.
yup.
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04-04-2012, 06:09 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
I am well aware of familial psychotic behaviour,many decades of it, and concur with general thrust of O.P.

Psyhcopaths are masters at psycho babble and fudgy logic, and some seem to suffer as a result of their own behaviour even while driving others round the twist. But do they really suffer; perhaps their feelings could be likened to the 'suffering'
of a consenting masochist. I also see another link here with Munchausens syndrome and that by proxy..

My argument relates to problems where real sources may be contributing to some alleged psychotic episodes resulting in false diagnosis and the exacerbation of some cases. An early American psychiatrist, 60s, Thomas Scasz was very popular when concluding that all mental illness could be found in the denial of then current American values.
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04-04-2012, 08:43 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(04-04-2012 01:27 PM)Quidsane Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 08:14 PM)Dom Wrote:  A more refined version of the psychopath, and also more frequently encountered and often misdiagnosed (and completely untreatable) is the malignant Narcissist. This is not your person who is just full of themselves, like we think of a narcissist primping in the mirror. This is a very sinister person.

They are frequent enough for all of us to have met at least one in our life. And they are a nasty piece of work, but may be very charming to you.

I had the distinct displeasure of knowing one of these people very well. I caused me to do a lot of research. There are a lot of theories about where this character formation comes from. The one that made the most sense is that there is a developmental issue in infancy, at the time when the kid starts to comprehend that it is not the center of the world. Malignant narcissists (and psychopaths, they are psychopaths) never get beyond that. To them, the world is a puppet theatre and they hold the strings. If a puppet fails to perform as desired it just gets discarded. They have no emotions of their own except for self pity, they observe others and mimic.

Most theories have it that there is a malformation in the brain that lays the ground work for this. This then needs to be reinforced by something that happens in infancy to them, something that would have no further repercussions for a normal child. It takes the two to make a psychopath/sociopath/malignant narcissist.

These people lie all the time. Everything is an act, since there are no actual emotions, no love, and actually no hate. There is rage, lots of rage when manipulating people fails. This is never the malignant narcissists fault, it is the other persons fault.

Since the Narcissist realizes early on that there is something amiss - others have all these strange reactions (emotions) he learns that life is acting. So, everything that comes out of their mouths is an act, and a lie. They love the power of manipulation, that they can mimic any type of emotion and get you to act in a certain way in response. They can choose you as their "golden child" and smother you with benevolence and if at any time you make a misstep in their eyes, they will tear you down and destroy you if they can. They don't care much one way or the other until they get old and it becomes difficult to find people to feed on. They do need to feed on people, by themselves they are an empty shell.

Everyone should know how to recognize one of these as they will try to destroy you in one way or another, sooner or later. And there are a lot of them out and about. They stay just this side of the law.

A rejected or exposed malignant narcissist is very, very dangerous.


I'm concerned about the interchanging of terms.
Narcissism is on the low end of the sociopathy spectrum. (1.0 on the sociopathy spectrum).
Malignant Narcissism is in the middle (3.0) of the psychopathy spectrum, and is by no means refined.

The traits you went on to describe are a precise fit for Borderline Personality Disorder (3.5 on the sociopathy spectrum).
In other words, the person must be a grandiose show-off who delights in public displays of humiliation and cruelty
to merit the term Malignant Narcissist, and even then there are several other factors to consider before they can
be diagnosed as such. They are most certainly not laid-back, refined, and acting all the time. Again, that's a BPD.

This line is especially troubling:

"...takes the two to make a psychopath/sociopath/malignant narcissist."


...because the implication is that a psychopath and a sociopath are the same animal.
First of all a Malignant Narcissist is a psychopath, and secondly,
psychopathy and sociopathy are subsets of ASPD (AntiSocial Personality Disorder).

Yes, there a lot of theories about the biological origins of sociopaths, but again no conclusive scientific evidence.
In other words, no evidence for nature/nurture. This is why the theory of "genetic mutant/evolutionary leap" occurred to me.

Now, lest ye conclude I'm talking out of my arse Rolleyes ,
I'll switch gears here and reveal my sociopath credentials:

This subject is absolutely personal to me, for I have twice in my life been victimized by these monsters.
Here's what happened with one of them:
I'm a single father of a beautiful 8-year-old boy who's mother is a full-blown sociopath.
The evil lengths she went to, to try and destroy me and my son are unspeakable.
It's unimaginable unless you've experienced it.

YEARS and YEARS of this:

court dates, court dates, cops, cops, turning family against me, custody battles, restraining orders, cops, cops, cops, court dates, court dates, court dates, anger management classes, cops, cops, cops, framed for drug dealing, cops, cops, cops, restraining orders, depression, drinking, cops, cops, court dates, court dates, lies, lies, lies, custody hearings, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars down the drain, family turns against you, friends don't believe you, NO ONE believes you, lots of drinking, depression, depression, the monster disappearing with my son for weeks on end, being told nothing can be done because she's the mother, and no custody agreement has been decided on by a judge, cops, cops, cops, court dates, court dates, worrying, worrying, worrying, so much worrying, becoming very intimate with the "dragging-ass" that is the justice system, lies, lies, lies, boss doesn't believe you, fired from jobs, abuse allegations, no escape, no chance in hell of escaping, trapped in a living nightmare with a batshit demon, thoughts of suicide, an immeasurable amount of tears, develop what I can only describe as PTSD, it continues on undiagnosed, cops, cops, cops, when the doorbell rings you want to blow your brains out because it's NEVER something good, lies, lies, court dates, arrest warrants, no way out of the madness, more cops, she's insane and evil but everyone hates and blames YOU, cops, court dates, depression, restraining orders, cops know you on a first-name basis, orders of protection, arrest warrants, you seriously consider murder for the first time in your life, cops, cops, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies...

...but I persevered, I survived. And I learned something.
A sociopath does fear one thing: exposure

After doing a PhD's worth of research, I discovered that the problem wasn't that she was crazy.
She wasn't/isn't crazy.
The problem is that she isn't human.

Once she realized (really realized) that I knew what she was, and that her moves were now predictable,
she knew she had been rendered powerless. She couldn't hurt us anymore because we refused to respond
to her game-playing. We stopped caring about her "zany antics" and when that happened, we were no
longer of any use to her. Yes

One interesting trait was the complete inability to associate actions with consequences.
If I went to her house, and she stabbed me to death, she would be furious with me for staining her carpet.

It was a horrifying chapter of our lives. I cringe at the thought of someone else going through it.
I suppose one way to handle this plague of locusts, because that's what they are,
is to force MRI scans on everyone. These monsters can be detected that way.
The we just... exterminate.
One can dream.Clap


Looks like we have a lot in common, although mine wasn't a spouse, it was my brother. He was a malignant narcissist and yes, he was grandiose. But he did not usually (I say usually) humiliate people in public. And yes, it is never their fault and nothing they do is a consequence of their actions, it is always the "defective" other person's fault.

Where the story differs is that being recognized did not render him powerless at all, it caused incredible rage and he started some serious persecution. Very similar to what you describr above.

However, what I finally did in court to expose him is that I purposefully made him fly into a rage. It was quite the spectacle. But I had had it with this evil man. I had been going round and round in court with him for 2 years, and for each court appearance I had to fly to Europe which I could ill afford with such frequency.

It was really clear when we were kids, but I didn't spend time with him, I am 7 years younger. So I escaped him then because he was too busy in his own age group, I just didn't count then. What got us entagled many years later was that I found out that he was trying to "gaslight" my mom. I flew in to see what was going on and landed in a situation I was not prepared for. Hence all the research.

He has been dead for years now and he is one person I just couldn't grieve for. All I felt was relief. Just a week before he died he called me to tell me that he wasn't done with me by a long shot. He was wrong.

There are no others like him anywhere in my family, so I doubt it's all genetic. No one saw it coming. Most other relatives just saw him as a braggart, he could be quite the charmer but the bragging was always there.

To this day I get angry when I think of what he did to mom.

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04-04-2012, 08:52 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
One of my mom's sisters refers to mom as "The Teflon Queen" because no matter what she does, she is able to manipulate things to look as though someone else was at fault. A couple of her more awful stunts actually took years of planning and conniving on her part. We all bought into her story...then she was surprised as one by one we all stopped falling for it. She destroyed any semblance of family that we might have had. And my dad went to his grave both loving her (at least his fictional image of her) and finally realizing what a monster she really is. To really look at things she has done is to study the behavior of a monster.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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04-04-2012, 10:08 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(04-04-2012 08:43 PM)Dom Wrote:  There are no others like him anywhere in my family, so I doubt it's all genetic.

Did you mean hereditary (as opposed to genetic)?
In my way of thinking, if there are no others like him in the family, then it is genetic.
Just a thought. Consider

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04-04-2012, 10:13 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(04-04-2012 10:08 PM)Quidsane Wrote:  
(04-04-2012 08:43 PM)Dom Wrote:  There are no others like him anywhere in my family, so I doubt it's all genetic.

Did you mean hereditary (as opposed to genetic)?
In my way of thinking, if there are no others like him in the family, then it is genetic.
Just a thought. Consider

Could be both. A dormant/recessive trait that also has environmental triggers. Varying extremes.

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04-04-2012, 10:13 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(04-04-2012 08:52 PM)Anjele Wrote:  To really look at things she has done is to study the behavior of a monster.

You never really get over being the victim of a sociopath, especially if you're blood-related to one...

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