Sociopaths a product of evolution?
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05-04-2012, 10:31 AM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(03-04-2012 03:33 PM)Quidsane Wrote:  ...then is random genetic mutation the answer as to why they exist? If so, why?
Certainly natural selection didn't breed it out of humans because it wasn't a "limiting factor". It's the same reason why we have problems like wisdom teeth trying to fit into our less-than-accomodating skulls. This problem isn't going to go away because it doesn't kill anyone before they reach puberty, therefore it doesn't stop us from passing this trait on. This same thing can be said about nearly every problem that still plagues our species. If it doesn't stop us from breeding, it doesn't stop getting passed on.

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05-04-2012, 12:15 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
Well, the ones with a low IQ tend to do themselves in with drugs or alcohol. Repeat failure is not something they can live with. But the ones with normal and high IQs thrive...

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05-04-2012, 06:55 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
I think it more likely that sociopathy is more a result of the environment in the womb than strictly of genetics. There are so many things that have to happen just so as the fetus develops, and small differences can have large effects.

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06-04-2012, 12:57 AM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(04-04-2012 01:27 PM)Quidsane Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 08:14 PM)Dom Wrote:  A more refined version of the psychopath, and also more frequently encountered and often misdiagnosed (and completely untreatable) is the malignant Narcissist. This is not your person who is just full of themselves, like we think of a narcissist primping in the mirror. This is a very sinister person.

They are frequent enough for all of us to have met at least one in our life. And they are a nasty piece of work, but may be very charming to you.

I had the distinct displeasure of knowing one of these people very well. I caused me to do a lot of research. There are a lot of theories about where this character formation comes from. The one that made the most sense is that there is a developmental issue in infancy, at the time when the kid starts to comprehend that it is not the center of the world. Malignant narcissists (and psychopaths, they are psychopaths) never get beyond that. To them, the world is a puppet theatre and they hold the strings. If a puppet fails to perform as desired it just gets discarded. They have no emotions of their own except for self pity, they observe others and mimic.

Most theories have it that there is a malformation in the brain that lays the ground work for this. This then needs to be reinforced by something that happens in infancy to them, something that would have no further repercussions for a normal child. It takes the two to make a psychopath/sociopath/malignant narcissist.

These people lie all the time. Everything is an act, since there are no actual emotions, no love, and actually no hate. There is rage, lots of rage when manipulating people fails. This is never the malignant narcissists fault, it is the other persons fault.

Since the Narcissist realizes early on that there is something amiss - others have all these strange reactions (emotions) he learns that life is acting. So, everything that comes out of their mouths is an act, and a lie. They love the power of manipulation, that they can mimic any type of emotion and get you to act in a certain way in response. They can choose you as their "golden child" and smother you with benevolence and if at any time you make a misstep in their eyes, they will tear you down and destroy you if they can. They don't care much one way or the other until they get old and it becomes difficult to find people to feed on. They do need to feed on people, by themselves they are an empty shell.

Everyone should know how to recognize one of these as they will try to destroy you in one way or another, sooner or later. And there are a lot of them out and about. They stay just this side of the law.

A rejected or exposed malignant narcissist is very, very dangerous.


I'm concerned about the interchanging of terms.
Narcissism is on the low end of the sociopathy spectrum. (1.0 on the sociopathy spectrum).
Malignant Narcissism is in the middle (3.0) of the psychopathy spectrum, and is by no means refined.

The traits you went on to describe are a precise fit for Borderline Personality Disorder (3.5 on the sociopathy spectrum).
In other words, the person must be a grandiose show-off who delights in public displays of humiliation and cruelty
to merit the term Malignant Narcissist, and even then there are several other factors to consider before they can
be diagnosed as such. They are most certainly not laid-back, refined, and acting all the time. Again, that's a BPD.

This line is especially troubling:

"...takes the two to make a psychopath/sociopath/malignant narcissist."


...because the implication is that a psychopath and a sociopath are the same animal.
First of all a Malignant Narcissist is a psychopath, and secondly,
psychopathy and sociopathy are subsets of ASPD (AntiSocial Personality Disorder).

Yes, there a lot of theories about the biological origins of sociopaths, but again no conclusive scientific evidence.
In other words, no evidence for nature/nurture. This is why the theory of "genetic mutant/evolutionary leap" occurred to me.

Now, lest ye conclude I'm talking out of my arse Rolleyes ,
I'll switch gears here and reveal my sociopath credentials:

This subject is absolutely personal to me, for I have twice in my life been victimized by these monsters.
Here's what happened with one of them:
I'm a single father of a beautiful 8-year-old boy who's mother is a full-blown sociopath.
The evil lengths she went to, to try and destroy me and my son are unspeakable.
It's unimaginable unless you've experienced it.

YEARS and YEARS of this:

court dates, court dates, cops, cops, turning family against me, custody battles, restraining orders, cops, cops, cops, court dates, court dates, court dates, anger management classes, cops, cops, cops, framed for drug dealing, cops, cops, cops, restraining orders, depression, drinking, cops, cops, court dates, court dates, lies, lies, lies, custody hearings, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars down the drain, family turns against you, friends don't believe you, NO ONE believes you, lots of drinking, depression, depression, the monster disappearing with my son for weeks on end, being told nothing can be done because she's the mother, and no custody agreement has been decided on by a judge, cops, cops, cops, court dates, court dates, worrying, worrying, worrying, so much worrying, becoming very intimate with the "dragging-ass" that is the justice system, lies, lies, lies, boss doesn't believe you, fired from jobs, abuse allegations, no escape, no chance in hell of escaping, trapped in a living nightmare with a batshit demon, thoughts of suicide, an immeasurable amount of tears, develop what I can only describe as PTSD, it continues on undiagnosed, cops, cops, cops, when the doorbell rings you want to blow your brains out because it's NEVER something good, lies, lies, court dates, arrest warrants, no way out of the madness, more cops, she's insane and evil but everyone hates and blames YOU, cops, court dates, depression, restraining orders, cops know you on a first-name basis, orders of protection, arrest warrants, you seriously consider murder for the first time in your life, cops, cops, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies...

...but I persevered, I survived. And I learned something.
A sociopath does fear one thing: exposure

After doing a PhD's worth of research, I discovered that the problem wasn't that she was crazy.
She wasn't/isn't crazy.
The problem is that she isn't human.

Once she realized (really realized) that I knew what she was, and that her moves were now predictable,
she knew she had been rendered powerless. She couldn't hurt us anymore because we refused to respond
to her game-playing. We stopped caring about her "zany antics" and when that happened, we were no
longer of any use to her. Yes

One interesting trait was the complete inability to associate actions with consequences.
If I went to her house, and she stabbed me to death, she would be furious with me for staining her carpet.

It was a horrifying chapter of our lives. I cringe at the thought of someone else going through it.
I suppose one way to handle this plague of locusts, because that's what they are,
is to force MRI scans on everyone. These monsters can be detected that way.
The we just... exterminate.
One can dream.Clap




Ooooh! Chills down my spine.

Painful memories!

I never met my ex-wife's first husband. Could you and he be one and the same? I wish you had told me all this before I married her.

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06-04-2012, 05:46 AM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(03-04-2012 03:33 PM)Quidsane Wrote:  My question is, since there is no concrete evidence linking environmental upbringing to sociopathy (i.e., you can't make a sociopath by abusing a child), and likewise no evidence that supports sociopathy being hereditary (2 sociopaths cannot make a baby sociopath), then is random genetic mutation the answer as to why they exist? If so, why?

Simple. Predation. The lack of natural predators creates a void; this kind of shit fills it. There's also "something else going on" in the chemical context of being human. I'm an unspecified psychopath; others of the breed sense this and stay the fuck away.

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13-04-2012, 11:22 AM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
WOW. Check out this exposé/admission from from a female BPD sociopath.
This scared the shit out of me. Describes my ex to a tee:

The Joyful Life of a Borderline/sociopath.

Posted February 18th, 2009 at 6:42PM

* By: Phage
* Age: 26-30, Woman


I live in a world where everyone is a cardboard cutout, a puppet, a means to an end, a fling to be discarded, a way to find connection, to plaster-over the lonelyness of my irreperable disconnection from mankind.

I'm a borderline, but I'm also a sociopath. It's a really weird combination. I'm both sensitive, vulnerable, and overly emotional, and yet detached from humanity. I'm virtually unable to find connection with others, and yet I need attachment, that completion.

When I'm by myself I default to a state of emotional vacancy and intolerable boredom, every moment must be filled by some activity or entertainment, and nothing holds my interest for long. The only interruptions are those of my own making, occasional manic episodes followed by deep troughs of depression.

And so I seek out people. Clubbing is my favorite social activity, constant superficial mingling combined with an environment friendly to drinking and drug use. A little intoxication goes a long way, people are drawn to me. I seem bright, happy, filled with life. My mix of total arrogance and self depricating humor is somehow magnetic, it makes it relatively easy to find friends or sexual partners, at least for the short term. I get bored of people just as quickly as everything else.

But in some ways, this is good. I'm usually attracted to the wrong sort of guys, the ones who share at least a small bit of my sociopathic nature. Men who're weak, the nice ones, the stupid ones, are just temporary amusement, people to mock and toy with until they realize they're not going to get laid and look elsewhere. I'd have to be desperate to sleep with someone like that.

And yet when I spend time with individuals, or small groups, I become hypersensative. Little things become big deals, small hurts bleed freely, and the cool, smooth emotional void that fills my days alone is replaced by a roller-coaster of wild reactions. Sometimes the presence and demands of others becomes an intollerable burden. Slowly, and then all at once, everything becomes horribly irritating.

Their words crawl under my skin and cannot be shed, everything they say to try to make things better only makes it worse, their presence alone is intolerable. I burst, scream at them, obscenities perhaps, or maybe I just tell them they should never have been born. Then, realizing this is sort of thing will harm my relationship with them, I apologize quickly. It's incencere, of course, all my apologies are. Sincerity of that nature would require I thought there was anything wrong with screaming at them, that I thought they were a real person. There are no people in my world, just placeholders where people are supposed to be.

Amazingly, most people seem to be able to tolerate this kind of behavior long enough for me to get bored with them. They might get upset, but I apologize so quickly, I'm obviously not myself and it usually doesn't last long, especially if I can get stoned to help calm myself down. I'm good at manipulation, at making everything seem reasonable and okay.

But the more I get to know someone, the less I respect them. I don't know why exactly, perhaps because in one way that matters greatly to me they are invarriably weak. I don't have a concience, I'm glad I don't, it's something I would never change, but invariably the people I'm with are different. Things like right and wrong matter to them, and that's just stupid.

Or maybe it's simpler, sooner or later everyone becomes subject to my manipulation, and so lose a portion of my respect. It's unavoidable, I never stop. I've tried not to for the purpose of relationships, but I'm unable. Any time I talk (at least, when I'm in a rational headspace) I'm accutely aware of my word choice, I say things the best way I can to get what I want. Even at my saddest, most miserable moment of depression I'm acutely aware of how I express my emotions, controlling that expression for the purpose of presenting the image which provides me with the greatest advantage.

When I was young, my mother learned never to trust my tears. Sometimes I think some of the worst ways she treated me during my teenage years were actually defense mechanisms. It probably helped her, but as my borderline blossemed in my late teens my emotions were never believed. She could inadvertantly hurt me, and then tell me it was my fault for over-reacting, or never even believe that I was hurting at all.

But whatever the reason for the lack of respect, and perhaps it is just familiarity breeding contept (I'm good at contempt), I eventually become mildly sadistic to everyone I know. I order them around, constantly needing to assert my dominance. Mild putdowns are the norm, and while I make an effort to say both positive and negative things, it's usually the negative ones that come out of my mouth. If someone is catty with me, all the better. I enjoy that sort of thing greatly, and usually it escalates until all we're doing is bitching at eachother. Then I get bored and tell them to chill out.

Having just told you all these terrible things about myself, you might be surprised to find that I generally consider myself a decent person. Oh, I get depressed and hate myself sometimes, but it's not because of my minor cruelties, or even my intermittant criminal behavior (a good subject for another story, perhaps), it's more... vague. Open ended self hatred, I'm a loathsome person because <fill in the blank>. There isn't really a reason for it at all.

But most of the time, when I'm not really thinking about it, I'd say I'm not a bad person, maybe even a good person. I'd tell you that I'm nice most of the time, and in some ways I am. I tend to be free with things that don't matter a whole lot to me, like small amounts of money, drugs, little favors. I'm a good listener, and a good confidant. And with the people I'm close to I reveal some of my vulnerability and confusion, and that's always endeering.

But I rather doubt most people could look at me objectively and say, "yeah, she's a good person." More likely the opposite. But the thing is, the parts of me that I see as bad are those that are broken. My emotional hair-trigger, my inability to keep friendships, the fact that I have no self-discipline to speak of. My unfortunate vulnerability to the opions of others, my constant need to assert my superiority (which, frankly, is tiring as hell). These are what I see as bad. The hurts I do people, the things I steal, the people I use, the way I treat those close to me, none of these are bad at all. I have no concience, and so I have no guilt. Well, I should say no guilt for immoral acts. I still occasionally feel bad about a few occasions I got cought stealing or the likes... it's just that it's the getting cought I feel guilty about.

Surprisingly enough, I have been in love before (another topic for another story perhaps, it was a very violently turbulent romance), and I even have a best friend. My only real, true friend, though I usually use the word casually. She's a hippy, a nice person, she recycles and feels it's her purpose to help people. I don't understand how I formed a connection with her, it's something I rarely do with anyone, but strangely enough it happened. And for that matter, I don't know how she can tolerate me. Perhaps in part it's because she doesn't play along with my superiority games, and is okay with being bossed around a bit. And she doesn't have a hard time with my emotional surges, she's very empathic, and she's bipolar herself so she goes through similar problems. Sometimes I even (awkwardly, because I don't have much empathy) comfort her. I try, anyway.

Anyway, that's who I am, or at least my current perception of who I am. It changes frequently, I'm an unstable person and my self-assessments are naturally influenced by the moment.



from http://www.experienceproject.com/stories...der/461161

It's very open about it's lack of humanity, and it even responds to comments. Scary stuff. Shocking
It has this to say about it's evolutionary existence:

...I'm not an anomaly, there are thousands of people like me. I exist because evolutionarily, people like me tend to successfully reproduce, and so pass on the genetic disposition to develop as I have. You may think I'm the worst of what it is to be human, certainly it seems like I'm lacking certain bits of humanity, but that's fine. I'm mostly happy with who I am.

She's a little off. There are hundreds of thousands of her in the U.S. alone.

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13-04-2012, 09:19 PM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
Round them all up and send them to the moon. They can spend all their time fucking each other over! Yes

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18-07-2013, 04:09 AM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
I myself have been diagnosed as a psychopath.
I'm a bit interested in what I am and have been doing some research on discussions like this. However a first hand account is a bit more informative don't you think?
The dinosaurs surely weren't fond of meteors, however it led to the evolution of something greater. Just as you believe we can be monsters, we are undoubtedly the future. You have a good idea of what we do, from what I can tell we have no pattern in the way we're raised or where our genes come from. So clearly being unable to identify us easily can be a scary thing.
But personally I'm probably a bit on the radical side. A constant battle to not manipulate and destroy everything close to me is a struggle. But don't get me wrong, I love humans. Their minds are like a canvas and their emotions are like colors, I simply desire to paint the portrait any way I like. I've played with people's minds since I was 4, or the first time I can remember.
Unto our emotions. The greatest feeling we can get is revenge, and (at least in my experience) is a damn easy game to play. A dedicated girlfriend ended up cheating on me. I spent awhile getting to know everyone she knew, and I had a tragic emotional breakdown (sarcasm) and I needed to be honest to my closest friends, and I told them every horrible detail. Quite literally I had her apologizing and begging for another chance. Things like this is all in a days work for someone like me, and I'll explain why. We have no real personality, so we can shift and bend into whatever mold the target desires, allowing us to become close to anyone we want and obviously we can make an enemy of anyone we like. It's just entertaining for us.
Try, right now, to never see another human being, paralyze your senses, all of them. You simply can't, and that's be the equivalence of me never controlling someone.
When I was 11 years old I tried to kill myself, and can you guess why?
I wanted to meet God, as simple as that. I was tired of the torment of not knowing. It may sound foolish, but this is a key function to a sociopath. Without knowledge we are afraid. So we study people so that we can progress, so that we can understand, and prove that not only do we understand them, but that we're better.
If you want to know one thing, it's that we fear loss of control over all else. A normal sociopath would be destroyed over a lost pet. But the ones that are more intelligent, will either dismiss you as a worthless disappointment, or they will use your family and friends, associates until you've suffered whatever punishment they feel you've earned.
I did something fellow sociopaths hate to watch me say, I told you the simple thing that can dissemble us. However I know for a fact that it would never work on me. It would only root out the weak, or force them to become better. Which is what I want, and in a way, I'm manipulating that too.
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18-07-2013, 05:16 AM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(18-07-2013 04:09 AM)JefferyM. Wrote:  I myself have been diagnosed as a psychopath.
I'm a bit interested in what I am and have been doing some research on discussions like this. However a first hand account is a bit more informative don't you think?
The dinosaurs surely weren't fond of meteors, however it led to the evolution of something greater. Just as you believe we can be monsters, we are undoubtedly the future. You have a good idea of what we do, from what I can tell we have no pattern in the way we're raised or where our genes come from. So clearly being unable to identify us easily can be a scary thing.
But personally I'm probably a bit on the radical side. A constant battle to not manipulate and destroy everything close to me is a struggle. But don't get me wrong, I love humans. Their minds are like a canvas and their emotions are like colors, I simply desire to paint the portrait any way I like. I've played with people's minds since I was 4, or the first time I can remember.
Unto our emotions. The greatest feeling we can get is revenge, and (at least in my experience) is a damn easy game to play. A dedicated girlfriend ended up cheating on me. I spent awhile getting to know everyone she knew, and I had a tragic emotional breakdown (sarcasm) and I needed to be honest to my closest friends, and I told them every horrible detail. Quite literally I had her apologizing and begging for another chance. Things like this is all in a days work for someone like me, and I'll explain why. We have no real personality, so we can shift and bend into whatever mold the target desires, allowing us to become close to anyone we want and obviously we can make an enemy of anyone we like. It's just entertaining for us.
Try, right now, to never see another human being, paralyze your senses, all of them. You simply can't, and that's be the equivalence of me never controlling someone.
When I was 11 years old I tried to kill myself, and can you guess why?
I wanted to meet God, as simple as that. I was tired of the torment of not knowing. It may sound foolish, but this is a key function to a sociopath. Without knowledge we are afraid. So we study people so that we can progress, so that we can understand, and prove that not only do we understand them, but that we're better.
If you want to know one thing, it's that we fear loss of control over all else. A normal sociopath would be destroyed over a lost pet. But the ones that are more intelligent, will either dismiss you as a worthless disappointment, or they will use your family and friends, associates until you've suffered whatever punishment they feel you've earned.
I did something fellow sociopaths hate to watch me say, I told you the simple thing that can dissemble us. However I know for a fact that it would never work on me. It would only root out the weak, or force them to become better. Which is what I want, and in a way, I'm manipulating that too.

The ordinary person is afraid of a lack of knowledge, that is not something exclusive to psychopaths. The difference is that psychopaths are unable to feel empathy towards other people. They are effectively void of any social morality, which is actually detrimental to the survival of our species.

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18-07-2013, 06:25 AM
RE: Sociopaths a product of evolution?
(18-07-2013 04:09 AM)JefferyM. Wrote:  I myself have been diagnosed as a psychopath.
I'm a bit interested in what I am and have been doing some research on discussions like this. However a first hand account is a bit more informative don't you think?
The dinosaurs surely weren't fond of meteors, however it led to the evolution of something greater. Just as you believe we can be monsters, we are undoubtedly the future. You have a good idea of what we do, from what I can tell we have no pattern in the way we're raised or where our genes come from. So clearly being unable to identify us easily can be a scary thing.
But personally I'm probably a bit on the radical side. A constant battle to not manipulate and destroy everything close to me is a struggle. But don't get me wrong, I love humans. Their minds are like a canvas and their emotions are like colors, I simply desire to paint the portrait any way I like. I've played with people's minds since I was 4, or the first time I can remember.
Unto our emotions. The greatest feeling we can get is revenge, and (at least in my experience) is a damn easy game to play. A dedicated girlfriend ended up cheating on me. I spent awhile getting to know everyone she knew, and I had a tragic emotional breakdown (sarcasm) and I needed to be honest to my closest friends, and I told them every horrible detail. Quite literally I had her apologizing and begging for another chance. Things like this is all in a days work for someone like me, and I'll explain why. We have no real personality, so we can shift and bend into whatever mold the target desires, allowing us to become close to anyone we want and obviously we can make an enemy of anyone we like. It's just entertaining for us.
Try, right now, to never see another human being, paralyze your senses, all of them. You simply can't, and that's be the equivalence of me never controlling someone.
When I was 11 years old I tried to kill myself, and can you guess why?
I wanted to meet God, as simple as that. I was tired of the torment of not knowing. It may sound foolish, but this is a key function to a sociopath. Without knowledge we are afraid. So we study people so that we can progress, so that we can understand, and prove that not only do we understand them, but that we're better.
If you want to know one thing, it's that we fear loss of control over all else. A normal sociopath would be destroyed over a lost pet. But the ones that are more intelligent, will either dismiss you as a worthless disappointment, or they will use your family and friends, associates until you've suffered whatever punishment they feel you've earned.
I did something fellow sociopaths hate to watch me say, I told you the simple thing that can dissemble us. However I know for a fact that it would never work on me. It would only root out the weak, or force them to become better. Which is what I want, and in a way, I'm manipulating that too.


I suggest it's time for you to again try to meet God. I wish you great success. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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