Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
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20-08-2016, 02:34 PM
RE: Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
(20-08-2016 01:17 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(20-08-2016 08:10 AM)Ace Wrote:  Ace says something like "What is Freewill?"
The freewill manifests in the actions, which are not fully determined by the laws. The actions of a robot (or the artificial intellect), all its actions are predetermined by the initial conditions - it has no freewill

again, how do you tell the difference between a thing that has free will and a thing that doesn't?

"predetermined by laws"
umm what laws exactly ?
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20-08-2016, 08:24 PM
RE: Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
(20-08-2016 02:34 PM)Ace Wrote:  
(20-08-2016 01:17 PM)theBorg Wrote:  The freewill manifests in the actions, which are not fully determined by the laws. The actions of a robot (or the artificial intellect), all its actions are predetermined by the initial conditions - it has no freewill

again, how do you tell the difference between a thing that has free will and a thing that doesn't?

"predetermined by laws"
umm what laws exactly ?
Evolution of the thing without the freewill is fully determined by the initial conditions and the incoming information. For example: if you switch the iPhone off, and then you turn it on, then you see the same images on the screen. So, do you understand the difference in the definitions of 1) non-freewill and 2) freewill?
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20-08-2016, 09:42 PM
RE: Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
(20-08-2016 08:24 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(20-08-2016 02:34 PM)Ace Wrote:  again, how do you tell the difference between a thing that has free will and a thing that doesn't?

"predetermined by laws"
umm what laws exactly ?
Evolution of the thing without the freewill is fully determined by the initial conditions and the incoming information. For example: if you switch the iPhone off, and then you turn it on, then you see the same images on the screen. So, do you understand the difference in the definitions of 1) non-freewill and 2) freewill?

you have yet to define freewill
your iphone example is dumb at best, all it states is if its OFF then its OFF, if its ON then its ON then tries to say freewill at the end
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20-08-2016, 11:48 PM
RE: Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
(20-08-2016 09:42 PM)Ace Wrote:  you have yet to define freewill
Evolution of the thing without the freewill is fully determined by the initial conditions and the incoming information.

Therefore, the freewill means the actions of the person, which are not fully determined by the initial conditions and the incoming information.
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20-08-2016, 11:58 PM
RE: Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
(20-08-2016 11:48 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(20-08-2016 09:42 PM)Ace Wrote:  you have yet to define freewill
Evolution of the thing without the freewill is fully determined by the initial conditions and the incoming information.

Therefore, the freewill means the actions of the person, which are not fully determined by the initial conditions and the incoming information.

And how can you demonstrate that you can do this? That your actions are not merely predetermined by billions of years of evolution interacting with its environment.

How could the robot know it was a robot?

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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21-08-2016, 12:41 AM
RE: Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
So, iI have not read all the posts, but what is the relationship, if any, between "freewill" and sentience?

And I would tend to agree with Paleophyte, all our actions are determined by genetic or environmental factors. All decisions, concious or unconcious, are the result of multiple internal and external factors - it is only our false sense of superiority that fools us into thinking we have 100% concious control over anything.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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21-08-2016, 01:13 AM
RE: Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
(20-08-2016 11:58 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  How could the robot know it was a robot?
At this point the Bible comes in. Besides, there is the secular reason for being the alive person, not a robot: dead body does not hear, does not see. I do hear, I do see. Thus, I am alive.
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21-08-2016, 01:18 AM
RE: Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
Okay, I'll play.

(21-08-2016 01:13 AM)theBorg Wrote:  ......... I do hear, I do see. Thus, I am alive.

But! How are you sure you are not a brain in a vat?

Consider
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21-08-2016, 01:22 AM
RE: Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
(20-08-2016 02:34 PM)Ace Wrote:  ...
again, how do you tell the difference between a thing that has free will and a thing that doesn't?
...

Two metrics spring to mind:

1. Lead indicator: The fee of your lawyer.
2. Lag indicator: The success or failure of your insanity plea.

Yes

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21-08-2016, 01:26 AM
RE: Solving the Ignosticism (is meant for ignostics only)
(21-08-2016 01:13 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(20-08-2016 11:58 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  How could the robot know it was a robot?
At this point the Bible comes in. Besides, there is the secular reason for being the alive person, not a robot: dead body does not hear, does not see. I do hear, I do see. Thus, I am alive.
Robots do see and hear but have to be prgrammed to interpret those inputs and choose an action.

Your brain has been programmed, above the level of its basic GOD (Genetic Operating Dynamics), all your life.

It maybe only complexity that truly separates us from the robot.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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