Some Questions From Atheists
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-03-2018, 10:50 PM
RE: Some Questions From Atheists
(04-03-2018 09:13 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(04-03-2018 02:31 PM)Hussein Wrote:  I think you know that I cannot answer these questions Blush I believe the unity of the names of God is something to be witnessed, it's not a matter of language and intellect.

It is my opinion that you can't answer this simple question because there is none. You can't "witness" something which doesn't exist. There is simply no reason for reality to be considered conscious and willful, only for individuals to be. At best, it's an inaccurate metaphor.

Thank you for sharing your insights Smile I trust what you say is the result of decades of searching for what you thought to be the truth.

In fact I agree with you, I do not see any reason to believe the reality to be conscious and willful like us individuals, it's more that I wish it to be, and I have some sort of intuitive trust in the words of mystics, I know it might not sound reasonable, but it's hard for me to believe people like Hallaj or Rumi were liars. But as I said, an impersonal God would be equally worthy of worship for me, I guess I wouldn't be able to have some of the personal relationships that I have with a hearing and seeing God though...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Hussein's post
05-03-2018, 12:02 AM
RE: Some Questions From Atheists
(04-03-2018 02:38 PM)Hussein Wrote:  Yes I'm a university student at the moment.
Good stuff Smile What are you studying if I may ask?

Quote:I'm aware about the scientific method, well I think the domain of science is limited, can science verify for me that "submission to the truth is the true way of living"?
I would agree with you that the domain of science is limited, your example is exactly the kind of question that I don't think science has anything to say about. What gives value to your life is up to you. But *within* the domain of science, can we agree that it reigns supreme? In other words, if for example there is something in the Qu'ran that contradicts an accepted scientific theory, then the Qu'ran must give way? I know you mentioned, and I think it's extremely positive, that most Muslims accept science as being in line with the Qu'ran, what I am wondering is what your thought process would be if you perceived a clash. Would you conclude perhaps that your understanding of the Qu'ran was incorrect?

Quote:To make it more clear, can you give up the proposition that "I love my son" if science shows you that you actually don't!?
Yeah, as for your other question, this is the kind of thing where I'd say science per se isn't applicable. It's not like you can run experiments that easily. Although you could probably come up with a few psychological experiments concerning love. In fact I know several have been done.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
05-03-2018, 05:53 AM
RE: Some Questions From Atheists
(04-03-2018 10:50 PM)Hussein Wrote:  
(04-03-2018 09:13 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  It is my opinion that you can't answer this simple question because there is none. You can't "witness" something which doesn't exist. There is simply no reason for reality to be considered conscious and willful, only for individuals to be. At best, it's an inaccurate metaphor.

Thank you for sharing your insights Smile I trust what you say is the result of decades of searching for what you thought to be the truth.

In fact I agree with you, I do not see any reason to believe the reality to be conscious and willful like us individuals, it's more that I wish it to be, and I have some sort of intuitive trust in the words of mystics, I know it might not sound reasonable, but it's hard for me to believe people like Hallaj or Rumi were liars. But as I said, an impersonal God would be equally worthy of worship for me, I guess I wouldn't be able to have some of the personal relationships that I have with a hearing and seeing God though...

Yes, unfortunately my conclusions were won only after years of thinking differently. I'm trying to save you some time.

Yes, it is hard to believe that some people were so mistaken. But reality is counter-intuitive, and people in the past didn't have access to our wealth of information. There's no reason to think they were liars so much as mistaken. They based their strongly held beliefs on appearances.

So-called "natural evils" are a problem for worshiping an indifferent God who is considered all-powerful. Things like children dying of cancer, parasites, tsunamis, and so on....
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thoreauvian's post
05-03-2018, 06:53 AM
RE: Some Questions From Atheists
(04-03-2018 10:50 PM)Hussein Wrote:  In fact I agree with you, I do not see any reason to believe the reality to be conscious and willful like us individuals, it's more that I wish it to be, and I have some sort of intuitive trust in the words of mystics, I know it might not sound reasonable, but it's hard for me to believe people like Hallaj or Rumi were liars.

People can be mistaken or misled and not be liars. They can honestly believe things and simply be wrong.

Quote: But as I said, an impersonal God would be equally worthy of worship for me, I guess I wouldn't be able to have some of the personal relationships that I have with a hearing and seeing God though...

There are many things I find worthy of respect or admiration or awe or love. I have not found anything that deserves worship. Anything that required worship would be disqualified from deserving it and in order to worship anything I would have to give up my self which would make the act of worship worthless.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like unfogged's post
05-03-2018, 07:12 AM
RE: Some Questions From Atheists
It's not only that millions of people can be wrong, it's that they must be wrong. Christianity and Islam alone are enough to show this. They make contradictory claims about what God wants.

Either these are really the same thing, and God doesn't care which religion you join, or else all the people having "personal experiences" with God in (at least) one of these religions are completely imagining it.

If they are the same (by extension all religions would end up being the same) then all their teachings can be safely ignored, and God will basically be happy with anyone. You think he'd have made this clear by now, rather than watching people hack each other to pieces over differences that don't matter.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Robvalue's post
07-03-2018, 10:36 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2018 11:22 PM by Hussein.)
RE: Some Questions From Atheists
(05-03-2018 12:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-03-2018 02:38 PM)Hussein Wrote:  Yes I'm a university student at the moment.
Good stuff Smile What are you studying if I may ask?

Quote:I'm aware about the scientific method, well I think the domain of science is limited, can science verify for me that "submission to the truth is the true way of living"?
I would agree with you that the domain of science is limited, your example is exactly the kind of question that I don't think science has anything to say about. What gives value to your life is up to you. But *within* the domain of science, can we agree that it reigns supreme? In other words, if for example there is something in the Qu'ran that contradicts an accepted scientific theory, then the Qu'ran must give way? I know you mentioned, and I think it's extremely positive, that most Muslims accept science as being in line with the Qu'ran, what I am wondering is what your thought process would be if you perceived a clash. Would you conclude perhaps that your understanding of the Qu'ran was incorrect?

Quote:To make it more clear, can you give up the proposition that "I love my son" if science shows you that you actually don't!?
Yeah, as for your other question, this is the kind of thing where I'd say science per se isn't applicable. It's not like you can run experiments that easily. Although you could probably come up with a few psychological experiments concerning love. In fact I know several have been done.

Quote:Good stuff Smile What are you studying if I may ask?
I'm studying software engineering and I have a degree in physics.

Quote:But *within* the domain of science, can we agree that it reigns supreme?
I think this seemingly simple question is quite puzzling.

Science is definitely the supreme tool for manipulating the nature.

But if you mean as a knowledge of reality, I'm not quite sure, that's more of a philosophical question I think. I'll briefly explain why it's not so clear for me.

For example in quantum mechanics, when scientists observed the strange evidences, they proposed several "interpretations", those interpretations are exactly equivalent from a mathematical perspective and they predict the exact same results, but they describe drastically different realities which contradict each other in many different ways. Now the question is, which of them is the correct one? Which of them is the true knowledge of reality? Scientists decided to stick with the Copenhagen interpretation, simply because it had a more robust mathematical formalism and it was easier to work with.

So, can we claim quantum mechanics yields knowledge of reality? If yes, which of the many contradictory interpretations is the true one?

When one understands that there are several and potentially infinite possible interpretations of the exact same observation, all yielding the the same accuracy, that's where the possibility of knowledge can be seriously questioned.

I must add that I strongly trust the "observations", such as the fact that the earth is a spheroid, but interpretations of observations aka theories? I'm not sure, especially in modern physics where things are quite weird. They are definitely great tools, but I think considering them as knowledge is not as obvious as it might seem.

Quote:In other words, if for example there is something in the Qu'ran that contradicts an accepted scientific theory, then the Qu'ran must give way?
If Qur'an contradicts some observations (e.g. a flat earth), I would try to understand Qur'an in a different way.

I must add that it is widely believed among Muslims that Qur'an does not contradict any widely accepted scientific theory.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2018, 12:55 AM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2018 01:12 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: Some Questions From Atheists
(07-03-2018 10:36 PM)Hussein Wrote:  If Qur'an contradicts some observations (e.g. a flat earth), I would try to understand Qur'an in a different way.

I must add that it is widely believed among Muslims that Qur'an does not contradict any widely accepted scientific theory.

I will rearrange your last two statements, so you can see where your error is:

Quote:.... Qur'an does not contradict any widely accepted scientific theory.
because
Quote:If Qur'an contradicts some observations (e.g. a flat earth), I .... try to understand Qur'an in a different way.

In other words: The Qur´an doesnt contradict any scientific theory, because when it does, you adapt it to the interpretation, and voilá....
As a (software) engineer you should, and hopefully some day will, understand this.

Quantum physics:
There may be several intepretations of the observed effects of reality, but at least scientists dont manipulate their observations, unlike Qur´an, for which you alread admitted that i gets "fixed" once its disconvered to be factually wrong about something. The re-interpretation of scripture (also in christianity) when found to be blatantly wrong (asnd desperated clinging to vague matching with scientific findings on the other hand), is a lack of intellectual honesty with yourself (imho).
Either your scripture is unambiguous and its clear and precise statements can be tested and falsified, or its too ambiguous. In the latter case it doenst warrant a specific *interpretation* just in order to falsify this *interptetation. Blatant: If your scripturte isnt precise enough to read clear statemetns out of it, then it sucks, and they just dont so that.
Its not my (atheist) problem and fault that all scriptures so far fail in the former case when their claims (of worldwide floods) are falsified or suck because they are all mumbo-jumbo ambiguous. What you are doing with Qur´an is hammering square objects through triangle hole and claim they have fit every time until now.


Quote:When one understands that there are several and potentially infinite possible interpretations of the exact same observation, all yielding the the same accuracy, that's where the possibility of knowledge can be seriously questioned.
I trust the scientific method and the people following it more than Qur´an, exactly because they dont claim to be inerrant before they fix their *interpretations* in the first place. Furthermore, even if all interpretations of the effects of quantum physics on reality would be wrong, that does still not give credit to something else for being right.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Deesse23's post
08-03-2018, 01:01 AM
RE: Some Questions From Atheists
(07-03-2018 10:36 PM)Hussein Wrote:  I'm studying software engineering and I have a degree in physics.
Ah, excellent Smile I also studied physics/maths and I work as a software developer.

Quote:
Quote:But *within* the domain of science, can we agree that it reigns supreme?
I think this seemingly simple question is quite puzzling.

Science is definitely the supreme tool for manipulating the nature.

But if you mean as a knowledge of reality, I'm not quite sure, that's more of a philosophical question I think. I'll briefly explain why it's not so clear for me.

For example in quantum mechanics, when scientists observed the strange evidences, they proposed several "interpretations", those interpretations are exactly equivalent from a mathematical perspective and they predict the exact same results, but they describe drastically different realities which contradict each other in many different ways. Now the question is, which of them is the correct one? Which of them is the true knowledge of reality? Scientists decided to stick with the Copenhagen interpretation, simply because it had a more robust mathematical formalism and it was easier to work with.

So, can we claim quantum mechanics yields knowledge of reality? If yes, which of the many contradictory interpretations is the true one?

When one understands that there are several and potentially infinite possible interpretations of the exact same observation, all yielding the the same accuracy, that's where the possibility of knowledge can be seriously questioned.

I must add that I strongly trust the "observations", such as the fact that the earth is a spheroid, but interpretations of observations aka theories? I'm not sure, especially in modern physics where things are quite weird. They are definitely great tools, but I think considering them as knowledge is not as obvious as it might seem.
That was an extremely insightful answer. One of the interesting things about science is that yes, no theory is regarded as being so true as to be beyond challenge.

Quote:
Quote:In other words, if for example there is something in the Qu'ran that contradicts an accepted scientific theory, then the Qu'ran must give way?
If Qur'an contradicts some observations (e.g. a flat earth), I would try to understand Qur'an in a different way.

I must add that it is widely believed among Muslims that Qur'an does not contradict any widely accepted scientific theory.
I have not read the Qu'ran but I understand that many miracles, such as Mohammed using a flying horse, are recounted. In the same way in the Christian Bible there are miracles recounted that contradict science.

For example there is a Bible story that when Joshua, in his bloodthirsty way, was pursuing his enemies, the Sun went down and he was disappointed he couldn't continue the slaughter. So he asked God to stop the Sun from going down, which God did for an hour "Stopped the Sun in the sky". Now we *know* that that would entail *stopping the entire Earth from rotating* which seems a bit nuts, especially since even if God managed that magical feat, just suddenly stopping the rotation would send Josh, his Hebrew Horde and their enemies along with everything else not nailed down on a short trip into space.

Does the Qu'ran not contain similar stories to these? What do you make of them?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-03-2018, 11:57 PM
RE: Some Questions From Atheists
(08-03-2018 12:55 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(07-03-2018 10:36 PM)Hussein Wrote:  If Qur'an contradicts some observations (e.g. a flat earth), I would try to understand Qur'an in a different way.

I must add that it is widely believed among Muslims that Qur'an does not contradict any widely accepted scientific theory.

I will rearrange your last two statements, so you can see where your error is:

Quote:.... Qur'an does not contradict any widely accepted scientific theory.
because
Quote:If Qur'an contradicts some observations (e.g. a flat earth), I .... try to understand Qur'an in a different way.

In other words: The Qur´an doesnt contradict any scientific theory, because when it does, you adapt it to the interpretation, and voilá....
As a (software) engineer you should, and hopefully some day will, understand this.

Quantum physics:
There may be several intepretations of the observed effects of reality, but at least scientists dont manipulate their observations, unlike Qur´an, for which you alread admitted that i gets "fixed" once its disconvered to be factually wrong about something. The re-interpretation of scripture (also in christianity) when found to be blatantly wrong (asnd desperated clinging to vague matching with scientific findings on the other hand), is a lack of intellectual honesty with yourself (imho).
Either your scripture is unambiguous and its clear and precise statements can be tested and falsified, or its too ambiguous. In the latter case it doenst warrant a specific *interpretation* just in order to falsify this *interptetation. Blatant: If your scripturte isnt precise enough to read clear statemetns out of it, then it sucks, and they just dont so that.
Its not my (atheist) problem and fault that all scriptures so far fail in the former case when their claims (of worldwide floods) are falsified or suck because they are all mumbo-jumbo ambiguous. What you are doing with Qur´an is hammering square objects through triangle hole and claim they have fit every time until now.


Quote:When one understands that there are several and potentially infinite possible interpretations of the exact same observation, all yielding the the same accuracy, that's where the possibility of knowledge can be seriously questioned.
I trust the scientific method and the people following it more than Qur´an, exactly because they dont claim to be inerrant before they fix their *interpretations* in the first place. Furthermore, even if all interpretations of the effects of quantum physics on reality would be wrong, that does still not give credit to something else for being right.

Desse, I reflected on all what you said and since I know you are not looking for my answers, I'm not going to give you an "answer" and to be honest I have none.

But I have a question from you:
Do you see us *me* and *you* as equal?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-03-2018, 12:18 AM
RE: Some Questions From Atheists
(13-03-2018 11:57 PM)Hussein Wrote:  Desse, I reflected on all what you said and since I know you are not looking for my answers,
How do you know? Actually i am looking forward to communicate with you.

(13-03-2018 11:57 PM)Hussein Wrote:  I'm not going to give you an "answer" and to be honest I have none.
You arent forced here to give any answers when you dont want to. So that is perfectly ok to me.
Admitting to having no answers to a specific topic or question is very honest and honourable. Thumbsup I hope you keep looking for them. Wink

(13-03-2018 11:57 PM)Hussein Wrote:  But I have a question from you:
Do you see us *me* and *you* as equal?
What do you exactly mean by "equal"?
I think i already made it clear, that as far as treatment of others goes (and acknowledging their rights and giving them chances) i am making no differences between man and woman, small and tall, fat or slim, etc.

I hope you will still stay on this forum and keep contributing. Big Grin

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Deesse23's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: