Some Questions for the Theists
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16-08-2015, 10:07 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(16-08-2015 09:00 AM)Aliza Wrote:  IF Jesus had been totally fictional, and no one was around to dispute his heritage, NT writers would have just written him as being from Bethlehem and that would have been the end of it.

Hitchens made this same point and it is interesting but not compelling in my opinion. The same conflicted stories could be the result of trying to patch together multiple different beliefs and interpretations of prophecy. It isn't as if the writers were all sitting down at a table deciding what the story would be. The parts were written at different times by people with different backgrounds and agendas.

Had Jesus been historical, and the records of that existed, then the NT writers would not have been able to write so many different versions of the story because they would have been laughed out of the room. The fact that we have multiple stories means that his historical existence likely wasn't known and they were free to extemporize.

For the record, I don't stake a claim on way on the historicity question although Carrier's arguments currently have me leaning towards the myth side. In the end, it doesn't matter all that much if there is a real person at the core of the myths or not. Stories of miracles surround Jim Jones, David Koresh, Sun Myun Moon, and a host of others so it certainly isn't unprecedented.

The bottom line is that I find the question currently unanswerable but interesting, especially since so many have dedicated their lives to it. Xians have often told me that god loves his people and wants them to know him and sent his son to redeem us and show the way and yet there is no good, solid evidence that it is anything more than fiction. I do not understand why more people don't see that or why a god with the claimed characteristics would not have done better.

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05-09-2015, 11:54 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2015 12:09 PM by mirawho.)
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
I find it interesting that the old Vedic literature isn't brought up much around here. I did a search and have not found a title about this. Most of the arguments here seem to center around the belief/disbelief in Abrahamic religions. And as far as Saṃsāra, I am sure it is a joke until you go through it again. Oh, BTW, I am not a Buddhist, just kind of laugh at how stubborn and unbending both sides are. Yeah, it is all physics, physics that magically fall apart at singularity (singularity/god - something neither theists or atheists can explain the existence of). Since neither side can explain that moment of god or that moment of creation, all of your arguments are conjecture.

I also find it interesting when people believe they are showing proof of non-existence by others not being able to provide a tangible proof of existence, yet they in their own world have no tangible proofs of what they "think" is correct. There are so many things in this world that can't be explained by mere science alone. The military has a very progressive and semi-secret program centered around remote viewing. That is the ability to go somewhere outside of your current physical area and see what is going on in another place. This kind of promotes the idea of a conscious "soul" or energy inside of you that is able to leave your physical body and be somewhere else. These people have been accurate and what they have done is not disclosed but the program continues.
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05-09-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
"A closed mind is a dying mind"
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05-09-2015, 12:16 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(05-09-2015 11:54 AM)mirawho Wrote:  I find it interesting that the old Vedic literature isn't brought up much around here. I did a search and have not found a title about this. Most of the arguments here seem to center around the belief/disbelief in Abrahamic religions.

Most theists who visit the forums are Christian, and most of the atheists here come from areas where Christianity is far and away the most common religion.

So no, the Vedic texts aren't mentioned much. Neither are the Celtic or Nordic gods.

(05-09-2015 11:54 AM)mirawho Wrote:  And as far as Saṃsāra, I am sure it is a joke until you go through it again.

Having your sanity blasted and your soul rent asunder by Azathoth also sounds like a joke, up until the point where you read the wrong book or perform the wrong calculations and find yourself hunted by the Hounds of Tindalos.

(05-09-2015 11:54 AM)mirawho Wrote:  Oh, BTW, I am not a Buddhist, just kind of laugh at how stubborn and unbending both sides are. Yeah, it is all physics, physics that magically fall apart at singularity (singularity/god - something neither theists or atheists can explain the existence of).

Atheists do not need to explain the existence of a god, or the existence of the singularity.

You really ought to read up on the burden of proof.

(05-09-2015 11:54 AM)mirawho Wrote:  There are so many things in this world that can't be explained by mere science alone.

Present one.

(05-09-2015 11:54 AM)mirawho Wrote:  The military has a very progressive and semi-secret program centered around remote viewing. That is the ability to go somewhere outside of your current physical area and see what is going on in another place.

If this existed - it doesn't, by the way - it would be explainable by science.

This is kind of given away by the fact that the military is supposedly researching it.

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05-09-2015, 06:55 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
This would have been my response back when I was a Christian (as given to me by my pastor):

Do you believe that god has given everyone free will to choose whether to serve him or not? Yes. God wanted children, not robots.

If so, what happens to aborted babies spiritually speaking? God is loving and just and would take care of them due to these reasons. God would not make them pay for their mother's sins. Even babies have the ability to love God and thereby could exercise freewill.

Do they automatically go to heaven? Yes.

If so, what happened to their free will? My church would have said even babies have the ability to love god and exercise free will. (nuts, I know).

Are they forced to serve god forever and ever? No, God doesn't force anyone to serve him.
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06-09-2015, 05:03 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(05-09-2015 06:55 PM)jennybee Wrote:  This would have been my response back when I was a Christian (as given to me by my pastor):

Do you believe that god has given everyone free will to choose whether to serve him or not? Yes. God wanted children, not robots.

If so, what happens to aborted babies spiritually speaking? God is loving and just and would take care of them due to these reasons. God would not make them pay for their mother's sins. Even babies have the ability to love God and thereby could exercise freewill.

Do they automatically go to heaven? Yes.

If so, what happened to their free will? My church would have said even babies have the ability to love god and exercise free will. (nuts, I know).

Are they forced to serve god forever and ever? No, God doesn't force anyone to serve him.

At that point I would have asked you if the firstborn children of Egypt had free will after God has them slaughteted. And what about pharoah's free will? God hardened his heart so he wouldn't be willing to let Israel go (rather counterproductive no?). Then beats him with plagues for not doing the thing god is keeping him from doing! The entire Caananite civilization was wiped out as a result of God Barker giving away land prizes already owned by someone else. I could go on . . . .

It's crazy how we tend to overlook these things while we are blinded by religon!

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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06-09-2015, 07:10 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
Hello! Big Grin

(05-09-2015 11:54 AM)mirawho Wrote:  The military has a very progressive and semi-secret program centered around remote viewing. That is the ability to go somewhere outside of your current physical area and see what is going on in another place. This kind of promotes the idea of a conscious "soul" or energy inside of you that is able to leave your physical body and be somewhere else. These people have been accurate and what they have done is not disclosed but the program continues.

Laugh out load

Please, share with us any links you might have regarding such information. Perhaps start a new thread about such?

I'm pretty sure that, other than a George Clooney movie, such takes are... exaggerations at best, 'Woo' peddlers dreams at worst.
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06-09-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(06-09-2015 05:03 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  At that point I would have asked you if the firstborn children of Egypt had free will after God has them slaughteted.
Yes, they had moral agency but they couldn't exercise it. They will have an opportunity to exercise their moral agency when they resurrect from the dead.
(06-09-2015 05:03 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  And what about pharoah's free will? God hardened his heart so he wouldn't be willing to let Israel go (rather counterproductive no?). Then beats him with plagues for not doing the thing god is keeping him from doing! The entire Caananite civilization was wiped out as a result of God Barker giving away land prizes already owned by someone else. I could go on . . . .
It's crazy how we tend to overlook these things while we are blinded by religon!
God didn't harden pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh hardened his own heart. That was one example of many errors in the Bible. We all know there are errors in the Bible, don't we?

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06-09-2015, 11:41 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(06-09-2015 11:24 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 05:03 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  At that point I would have asked you if the firstborn children of Egypt had free will after God has them slaughteted.
Yes, they had moral agency but they couldn't exercise it. They will have an opportunity to exercise their moral agency when they resurrect from the dead.
(06-09-2015 05:03 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  And what about pharoah's free will? God hardened his heart so he wouldn't be willing to let Israel go (rather counterproductive no?). Then beats him with plagues for not doing the thing god is keeping him from doing! The entire Caananite civilization was wiped out as a result of God Barker giving away land prizes already owned by someone else. I could go on . . . .
It's crazy how we tend to overlook these things while we are blinded by religon!
God didn't harden pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh hardened his own heart. That was one example of many errors in the Bible. We all know there are errors in the Bible, don't we?

Okay, so when what scripture says becomes problematic it's in error. I see how this works . . .

Rolleyes

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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06-09-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(06-09-2015 11:24 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 05:03 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  At that point I would have asked you if the firstborn children of Egypt had free will after God has them slaughteted.
Yes, they had moral agency but they couldn't exercise it. They will have an opportunity to exercise their moral agency when they resurrect from the dead.
(06-09-2015 05:03 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  And what about pharoah's free will? God hardened his heart so he wouldn't be willing to let Israel go (rather counterproductive no?). Then beats him with plagues for not doing the thing god is keeping him from doing! The entire Caananite civilization was wiped out as a result of God Barker giving away land prizes already owned by someone else. I could go on . . . .
It's crazy how we tend to overlook these things while we are blinded by religon!
God didn't harden pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh hardened his own heart. That was one example of many errors in the Bible. We all know there are errors in the Bible, don't we?

Quote:We all know there are errors in the Bible, don't we?

Yeah, like walking on water and all that nonsense storytelling rubbish.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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