Some Questions for the Theists
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13-08-2015, 02:55 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 02:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 02:05 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  Even if this has not been "revealed" we can still follow a line of reasoning. If we as humans are granted "free will", namely that we have a choice in our allegiance outside the confines of predestination, if aborted babies go to heaven, then their free will has been usurped. If they go to hell, their free will also has been usurped.
"Moral agency" not "free will"
If they go to hell then you are right.
If they go to heaven then moral agency was not usurped. Because every spirit before he or she enters physical body makes a choice:" I want to come back to heaven to my Father after mortal life". So, if he or she didn't have a chance to live life they already made a choice to be back with Father.
(13-08-2015 02:05 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  It creates a paradox. Now ultimately if we do not have free will, then it is astronomically irrational that a god of love would doom all of mankind with a sinful nature for which Adam & Eve had no choice over the action that lead to the fall. Furthermore, why would a god of love place such a fucking thing in the middle of the garden of Eden in the first place? I don't know if you are a parent or not, but it is rather akin to a parent taking a cache of arsenic and placing it in the middle of the living room where little toddler Suzie is playing with her dolls and telling her not to get into the arsenic. Oh yeah, let's make the arsenic look like a baby bottle. That makes perfect sense. FFS!
You are like all those many, many Christians do not understand what really happened in the Garden of Eden(Fall of Adam and Eve story) and what really happened in the garden of Gethsemane(Atonement story)
Forbidden fruit was not bad/not poison. This fruit made Adam and Eve like Gods who know good and evil.
God gave them a choice:
stay the way you are(not like Gods) in this Garden(GOOD choice)
or
change, so, you can learn MORE things(good and evil). By learning them you progress, you becoming like one of Us. (A BETTER choice).
Analogy:
do not go outside of the house so you will be safe all the time,
but if you go you will not be safe all the time, but you will learn many things - good and bad. Your life will have many great experiences but also many hard experiences.
staying at safe home forever is good choice
but to leave home and learn many things and have more experiences is better choice.
Adam and Eve were not toddlers. They already had hair you know were. They could handle to be outside the comfy house.

Partaking of fruit of knowledge of good and evil was NOT a choice between
good and evil
but between
good and better

That is certainly a unique interpretation! I would bet that every non-Mormon Christian would disagree with you, though. And probably every religious Jew as well.
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13-08-2015, 02:55 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 02:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 02:05 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  Even if this has not been "revealed" we can still follow a line of reasoning. If we as humans are granted "free will", namely that we have a choice in our allegiance outside the confines of predestination, if aborted babies go to heaven, then their free will has been usurped. If they go to hell, their free will also has been usurped.
"Moral agency" not "free will"
If they go to hell then you are right.
If they go to heaven then moral agency was not usurped. Because every spirit before he or she enters physical body makes a choice:" I want to come back to heaven to my Father after mortal life". So, if he or she didn't have a chance to live life they already made a choice to be back with Father.
(13-08-2015 02:05 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  It creates a paradox. Now ultimately if we do not have free will, then it is astronomically irrational that a god of love would doom all of mankind with a sinful nature for which Adam & Eve had no choice over the action that lead to the fall. Furthermore, why would a god of love place such a fucking thing in the middle of the garden of Eden in the first place? I don't know if you are a parent or not, but it is rather akin to a parent taking a cache of arsenic and placing it in the middle of the living room where little toddler Suzie is playing with her dolls and telling her not to get into the arsenic. Oh yeah, let's make the arsenic look like a baby bottle. That makes perfect sense. FFS!
You are like all those many, many Christians do not understand what really happened in the Garden of Eden(Fall of Adam and Eve story) and what really happened in the garden of Gethsemane(Atonement story)
Forbidden fruit was not bad/not poison. This fruit made Adam and Eve like Gods who know good and evil.
God gave them a choice:
stay the way you are(not like Gods) in this Garden(GOOD choice)
or
change, so, you can learn MORE things(good and evil). By learning them you progress, you becoming like one of Us. (A BETTER choice).
Analogy:
do not go outside of the house so you will be safe all the time,
but if you go you will not be safe all the time, but you will learn many things - good and bad. Your life will have many great experiences but also many hard experiences.
staying at safe home forever is good choice
but to leave home and learn many things and have more experiences is better choice.
Adam and Eve were not toddlers. They already had hair you know were. They could handle to be outside the comfy house.

Partaking of fruit of knowledge of good and evil was NOT a choice between
good and evil
but between
good and better

Blink

Ohmy

Gasp

Unsure

Consider

Laugh out load

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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13-08-2015, 02:59 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 02:55 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  That is certainly a unique interpretation! I would bet that every non-Mormon Christian would disagree with you, though. And probably every religious Jew as well.
They do not understand why Fall of Adam and Eve is so important.
They do not know WHY God wants us to be here. They do not know the purpose of all this creation.
Their understanding of Fall makes no sense.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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13-08-2015, 03:04 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 02:55 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 02:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  "Moral agency" not "free will"
If they go to hell then you are right.
If they go to heaven then moral agency was not usurped. Because every spirit before he or she enters physical body makes a choice:" I want to come back to heaven to my Father after mortal life". So, if he or she didn't have a chance to live life they already made a choice to be back with Father.
You are like all those many, many Christians do not understand what really happened in the Garden of Eden(Fall of Adam and Eve story) and what really happened in the garden of Gethsemane(Atonement story)
Forbidden fruit was not bad/not poison. This fruit made Adam and Eve like Gods who know good and evil.
God gave them a choice:
stay the way you are(not like Gods) in this Garden(GOOD choice)
or
change, so, you can learn MORE things(good and evil). By learning them you progress, you becoming like one of Us. (A BETTER choice).
Analogy:
do not go outside of the house so you will be safe all the time,
but if you go you will not be safe all the time, but you will learn many things - good and bad. Your life will have many great experiences but also many hard experiences.
staying at safe home forever is good choice
but to leave home and learn many things and have more experiences is better choice.
Adam and Eve were not toddlers. They already had hair you know were. They could handle to be outside the comfy house.

Partaking of fruit of knowledge of good and evil was NOT a choice between
good and evil
but between
good and better

That is certainly a unique interpretation! I would bet that every non-Mormon Christian would disagree with you, though. And probably every religious Jew as well.

Yes the members of the LDS cult have a very convoluted and complicated twisty way of describing their woo. Almost as comical as scientologists, but without the flare of alien souls, and spaceships, lets take a peek and compare and contrast the BS woo of Mormonism, which I eviscerated in another thread and a tiny excerpt of scientology...which is crazier? Consider

The Church of Scientology holds that at the higher levels of initiation ("OT levels"), mystical teachings are imparted that may be harmful to unprepared readers. These teachings are kept secret from members who have not reached these levels. The church says that the secrecy is warranted to keep its materials' use in context and to protect its members from being exposed to materials they are not yet prepared for. These are the OT levels, the levels above Clear, whose contents are guarded within Scientology. The OT level teachings include accounts of various cosmic catastrophes that befell the thetans. Hubbard described these early events collectively as "space opera". In the OT levels, Hubbard explains how to reverse the effects of past-life trauma patterns that supposedly extend millions of years into the past.

Among these advanced teachings is the story of Xenu (sometimes Xemu), introduced as the tyrant ruler of the "Galactic Confederacy". No, I am not kidding Laugh out load But wait, there's more...According to this story, 75 million years ago Xenu brought billions of people to Earth in spacecraft resembling Douglas DC-8 airliners, stacked them around volcanoes and detonated hydrogen bombs in the volcanoes. The thetans then clustered together, stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to do this today. Scientologists at advanced levels place considerable emphasis on isolating body thetans and neutralizing their ill effects. Gasp

Excerpts and descriptions of OT materials were published online by a former member in 1995 and then circulated in mainstream media. This occurred after the teachings were submitted as evidence in court cases involving Scientology, thus becoming a matter of public record. There are eight publicly known OT levels, OT I to VIII. The highest level, OT VIII, is disclosed only at sea on the Scientology cruise ship Freewinds. It has been rumored that additional OT levels, said to be based on material written by Hubbard long ago, will be released at some appropriate point in the future. Facepalm

A large Church of Spiritual Technology symbol carved into the ground at Scientology's Trementina Base is visible from the air. Washington Post reporter Richard Leiby wrote, "Former Scientologists familiar with Hubbard’s teachings on reincarnation say the symbol marks a 'return point' so loyal staff members know where they can find the founder’s works when they travel here in the future from other places in the universe."

buahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha WOW, you just CAN'T make this shit up....oh wait.. Unsure ..apparently you can.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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13-08-2015, 03:25 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 02:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 02:05 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  Even if this has not been "revealed" we can still follow a line of reasoning. If we as humans are granted "free will", namely that we have a choice in our allegiance outside the confines of predestination, if aborted babies go to heaven, then their free will has been usurped. If they go to hell, their free will also has been usurped.
"Moral agency" not "free will"
If they go to hell then you are right.
If they go to heaven then moral agency was not usurped. Because every spirit before he or she enters physical body makes a choice:" I want to come back to heaven to my Father after mortal life". So, if he or she didn't have a chance to live life they already made a choice to be back with Father.
(13-08-2015 02:05 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  It creates a paradox. Now ultimately if we do not have free will, then it is astronomically irrational that a god of love would doom all of mankind with a sinful nature for which Adam & Eve had no choice over the action that lead to the fall. Furthermore, why would a god of love place such a fucking thing in the middle of the garden of Eden in the first place? I don't know if you are a parent or not, but it is rather akin to a parent taking a cache of arsenic and placing it in the middle of the living room where little toddler Suzie is playing with her dolls and telling her not to get into the arsenic. Oh yeah, let's make the arsenic look like a baby bottle. That makes perfect sense. FFS!
You are like all those many, many Christians do not understand what really happened in the Garden of Eden(Fall of Adam and Eve story) and what really happened in the garden of Gethsemane(Atonement story)
Forbidden fruit was not bad/not poison. This fruit made Adam and Eve like Gods who know good and evil.
God gave them a choice:
stay the way you are(not like Gods) in this Garden(GOOD choice)
or
change, so, you can learn MORE things(good and evil). By learning them you progress, you becoming like one of Us. (A BETTER choice).
Analogy:
do not go outside of the house so you will be safe all the time,
but if you go you will not be safe all the time, but you will learn many things - good and bad. Your life will have many great experiences but also many hard experiences.
staying at safe home forever is good choice
but to leave home and learn many things and have more experiences is better choice.
Adam and Eve were not toddlers. They already had hair you know were. They could handle to be outside the comfy house.

Partaking of fruit of knowledge of good and evil was NOT a choice between
good and evil
but between
good and better

Okay, lunacy of Mormon doctrine aside, if your last statement is true, why would god hold a grudge for people wanting to better themselves? Wouldn't that make him insecure? But back to the original consideration, if a child is in the womb, they do not possess a moral agency because there exists no opportunities in the womb to choose right from wrong.

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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13-08-2015, 03:35 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 02:59 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 02:55 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  That is certainly a unique interpretation! I would bet that every non-Mormon Christian would disagree with you, though. And probably every religious Jew as well.
They do not understand why Fall of Adam and Eve is so important.
They do not know WHY God wants us to be here. They do not know the purpose of all this creation.
Their understanding of Fall makes no sense.

I actually agree with your final statement. However, your understanding of it makes even less sense.

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13-08-2015, 04:17 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 03:25 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  Okay, lunacy of Mormon doctrine aside, if your last statement is true, why would god hold a grudge for people wanting to better themselves?
He didn't hold the grudge.
(13-08-2015 03:25 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  But back to the original consideration, if a child is in the womb, they do not possess a moral agency because there exists no opportunities in the womb to choose right from wrong.
We don't know when spirit enters physical body. May be it happens with first cry.
But if spirit enters from the moment of conception then as newborn infant fetus has moral agency but can not exercise it yet. If infant dies he will be resurrected again during Millennium. He/she will exercise his/her moral agency. The same we can say about fetus if she/he has spirit. If fetus doesn't have spirit then it is not human. it is piece of flesh or cells.

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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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13-08-2015, 04:18 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 03:35 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  However, your understanding of it makes even less sense.

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I do not see how.

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I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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13-08-2015, 05:40 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
Sure he didn't. . . he only doomed all of mankind to eternity in hell for eating from the tree . . .

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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13-08-2015, 05:43 PM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 04:17 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 03:25 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  Okay, lunacy of Mormon doctrine aside, if your last statement is true, why would god hold a grudge for people wanting to better themselves?
He didn't hold the grudge.
(13-08-2015 03:25 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  But back to the original consideration, if a child is in the womb, they do not possess a moral agency because there exists no opportunities in the womb to choose right from wrong.
We don't know when spirit enters physical body. May be it happens with first cry.
But if spirit enters from the moment of conception then as newborn infant fetus has moral agency but can not exercise it yet. If infant dies he will be resurrected again during Millennium. He/she will exercise his/her moral agency. The same we can say about fetus if she/he has spirit. If fetus doesn't have spirit then it is not human. it is piece of flesh or cells.

Define human

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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