Some Questions for the Theists
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14-08-2015, 05:55 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 11:34 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I'm not a biblical scholar, but I don't recall a messiah named Jesus ever being predicted in the OT. There was one who would be called Immanuel, however...

There wasn't even one who would be called Immanuel. -Not in the context that the Christians say, anyway.
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14-08-2015, 06:17 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(14-08-2015 05:55 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 11:34 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I'm not a biblical scholar, but I don't recall a messiah named Jesus ever being predicted in the OT. There was one who would be called Immanuel, however...

There wasn't even one who would be called Immanuel. -Not in the context that the Christians say, anyway.

I thought I'd include Immanuel since it was the only messiah-like OT prophesy I could think of at the time, and the writer of the Gospel of Matthew apparently referenced the Immanuel prophecy in relation to Jesus.

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14-08-2015, 06:42 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(14-08-2015 06:17 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 05:55 AM)Aliza Wrote:  There wasn't even one who would be called Immanuel. -Not in the context that the Christians say, anyway.

I thought I'd include Immanuel since it was the only messiah-like OT prophesy I could think of at the time, and the writer of the Gospel of Matthew apparently referenced the Immanuel prophecy in relation to Jesus.

It isn't common knowledge among those with a Christian background, but the passage that Matthew quoted is taken out of context. Matthew was either ignorant of the Hebrew scriptures or he was unschooled in the Hebrew language.... Or both.

Isaiah 7:14 isn't a messianic prophesy at all. It was a prophesy that was to be fulfilled in the short term; something that King Ahaz could use in the course of his own lifetime to serve as "proof" that he would win a war. If it wasn't to be fulfilled for 700 years (when Jesus was born), then how could that prophesy served to aid the king? The woman in question was known to both Isaiah and King Ahaz, and she was likely married to one of them. The text also says that the young woman was already pregnant when the prophesy was written. It also doesn't say anything about her being a virgin.

Matthew's ignorance in this matter is really quite astonishing.
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14-08-2015, 06:55 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(14-08-2015 06:42 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 06:17 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I thought I'd include Immanuel since it was the only messiah-like OT prophesy I could think of at the time, and the writer of the Gospel of Matthew apparently referenced the Immanuel prophecy in relation to Jesus.

It isn't common knowledge among those with a Christian background, but the passage that Matthew quoted is taken out of context. Matthew was either ignorant of the Hebrew scriptures or he was unschooled in the Hebrew language.... Or both.

Isaiah 7:14 isn't a messianic prophesy at all. It was a prophesy that was to be fulfilled in the short term; something that King Ahaz could use in the course of his own lifetime to serve as "proof" that he would win a war. If it wasn't to be fulfilled for 700 years (when Jesus was born), then how could that prophesy served to aid the king? The woman in question was known to both Isaiah and King Ahaz, and she was likely married to one of them. The text also says that the young woman was already pregnant when the prophesy was written. It also doesn't say anything about her being a virgin.

Matthew's ignorance in this matter is really quite astonishing.

Sounds about right.

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14-08-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(14-08-2015 06:42 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Matthew's ignorance in this matter is really quite astonishing.

It could also be an attempt to find support for his beliefs that was either an intentional twisting of the original story or just self-delusion.

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14-08-2015, 07:49 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(13-08-2015 08:22 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 07:34 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I want photos.

That's the proof I want.

Or perhaps mention in actual historical documents.
Might be a problem seein as how the Romans destroyed all proof other than texts that where written after the fact for the most part. They are historic documents though.

Citation please

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14-08-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(14-08-2015 07:49 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 08:22 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Might be a problem seein as how the Romans destroyed all proof other than texts that where written after the fact for the most part. They are historic documents though.

Citation please
Yeah, no problem. Let me just cite some destroyed documents from 2000 years ago. People's claims of citations being necessary or absolutely ridiculous it is simply a defensive mechanism for your deluded comprehension and justification of your stance as an atheist. Thank you.
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14-08-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(14-08-2015 08:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah, no problem. Let me just cite some destroyed documents from 2000 years ago. People's claims of citations being necessary or absolutely ridiculous it is simply a defensive mechanism for your deluded comprehension and justification of your stance as an atheist. Thank you.

No offence, but offering something more than your made up 'feel good' might go a little way towards folks engaging with you.

Though, so far, I'm not reading much that is coherent from yourself, Pops.
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14-08-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(14-08-2015 08:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 07:49 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  Citation please
Yeah, no problem. Let me just cite some destroyed documents from 2000 years ago. People's claims of citations being necessary or absolutely ridiculous it is simply a defensive mechanism for your deluded comprehension and justification of your stance as an atheist. Thank you.

According to your logic, I could claim that jesus didn't really rise from the dead and that early christians destroyed all documents that discussed this and I don't need provide any evidence to back this up. Bullshit. That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
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14-08-2015, 09:12 AM
RE: Some Questions for the Theists
(14-08-2015 08:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 07:49 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  Citation please
Yeah, no problem. Let me just cite some destroyed documents from 2000 years ago. People's claims of citations being necessary or absolutely ridiculous it is simply a defensive mechanism for your deluded comprehension and justification of your stance as an atheist. Thank you.

No, we just like to see some evidence when outrageous claims are made. What reason do you have to think that "the Romans destroyed all the documents"? When we ask for a citation, we don't mean "show us the destroyed documents" -- that would be a ridiculous demand. What we do mean is "show us some evidence that someone with some actual credentials has made this claim" (i.e., someone other than you). Because on the face of it, it's just not a believable claim.
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