Some radical ideas.
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02-03-2015, 08:44 AM
Some radical ideas.
Ive got a few ideas id like to discuss, id like to hear why you think my ideas wont work.

1: Ban interest on money.

All money is created from debt, with an interest rate put on top. I understand the risk involved so interest is the sweetener and the reason why people lend or choose to hold certain accounts, to increase their wealth.

My idea is that money should be a means of exchange and thats it.

How would I achieve this? I would create a new national bank, lets call it The New Bank of England. Every single person would have an account with the bank and all current money transferred there. It would be owned by everybody.

If you wanted to lend money, to make a purchase, get a mortgage or to start a business then you could approach the bank and as long as you can prove you have the means to pay, pretty much like the system works today, you can lend the money. The money lent will be guaranteed by the whole country.

Because there is no self serving need by anybody to make money out of the transactions, there could be more flexibility. If your business is struggling and you cant afford your repayments. Then with negotiation your repayments could be lowered, with the aim of helping the individual, removing the need to make any profit from the debt.

Because the bank is nationalised you could deduct repayments straight out of peoples taxes, before they even get their wage packet. If you are self employed then you have to account for these payment at the end of the financial year just like you do with your tax returns.

A certain percentage of losses will be expected, these however could be balanced by an increase in tax. Easing credit restrictions and lending to people could increase the money velocity. A more healthier economy should increase tax revenue.

2: Non profit on basic essentials.

Energy firms would be nationalised, any profits made would not line any individuals pockets but would be fully invested in improving infrastructure and fed back into the system. Potentially lowering prices, prices would be based upon providing and maintaining a service, not making a profit.

I would also include water and some food production.

If it costs 20 pence to make a loaf of bread, then thats the price you pay.

3: No wages for MPs.

I know some amazing people who work in communities who tirelessly work because they genuinely want to help others. Im sure some MPs are the same, however you do get career politicians. I would pay their expenses for their work, they would be provided for but would not draw a wage.

Thats about the basics of my ideas.

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02-03-2015, 08:53 AM
RE: Some radical ideas.
(02-03-2015 08:44 AM)bemore Wrote:  1: Ban interest on money.

Islam beat you to this one.

#sigh
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02-03-2015, 09:05 AM
RE: Some radical ideas.
I dunno mate, but them radical ideas sounds dodgy. Unless economist or someone with relevant knowledge can comment on likely effects, but... point of what we have is that it works after a fashion. If you want to propose radical changes then they have to have very very good justification beyond that they feel right - possible consequences need to be analyzed. Because making a slight change is easy - if it doesn't work you change back and things are fine. Making a radical change is either gonna work or not, and if it doesn't work you're fucked.

E.g. I think no wages for MPs is a good idea BUT it's not gonna change your political landscape one iota - they'll still be self-serving assholes. Why? Because plenty of people will have reasons to want the people in power to act in a particular way, and will reward them independently of salaries.

Nationalizing businesses is another tricky one. Tends to make investors in your country helluva nervous for one. You need to compensate the business owner. You need to ensure that the business continues to serve its customers in a good fashion. Because it's now a government organization, there is no competition... There's a lot of stuff that can go wrong... But it can work...

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02-03-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: Some radical ideas.
(02-03-2015 08:53 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 08:44 AM)bemore Wrote:  1: Ban interest on money.

Islam beat you to this one.

Yabut, not really. They charge interest - they just don't call it interest.

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02-03-2015, 10:21 AM
RE: Some radical ideas.
1. Why would anyone lend money then? You give someone money, take the risk they may never pay you back and then, maybe, get the money back. Yep, sign me right up for that deal.

2. I need to think more about this.

3. I hate this idea. Hate it. We have this thing now in the US were multi millionaires spend millions of their own money to get elected, eschew the salary and do the job for free, and act like this is great for everyone. It's not. It sucks and it sends a horrible message. Being an elected official is a job. I don't want to live in a society where only the ultra rich can afford to hold office and treat leadership as a hobby. My ancestors ran away from those arrangements and fought wars to ensure I didn't have to live in the kind of society. So, no thanks.

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02-03-2015, 01:25 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
I like the feedback up to now. It all helps me evolve these ideas.

I understand that there is a risk that loans will not be repayed and that the interest is why people lend, however banks dont actually lend other peoples money out. Its a misconception.

Because the bank would be owned by everybody and ran by the government then I would make it illegal to not pay it back. If you decided to take out a loan and then decided to disappear, good luck with that. Your passport will no longer be valid, stopping you from leaving the country, if you own a vehicle then it would be flagged on the ANPR database that the UK now has (automatic number plate recognition) and your whereabouts will be known and tracked if you ever use a vehicle registered under your name. If you get a job your repayments will be deducted before you get you even get your money. You can't remove the risks of people not paying it back, however you can strongly enforce methods of retrieval.

With no interest the amount you owe will never go up. So if something happens that prevents you from making payments and you need to go onto welfare or have a break, then when your circumstances change and improve you can resume repayment with no further charges added.

When your birth is registered, abank account is also made in your name. If you ever wanted to make another account with another bank it would need to be linked to your birth account. If you try and divert money to these other accounts in a bid to evade paying your loan back it would be impossible. Your birth account could also be used as identification for other purposes. Much like driving licenses and passports are used today.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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02-03-2015, 01:53 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2015 02:01 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Some radical ideas.
With you all the way on 1. and 2.

I've taken a personal stance for #1. I have no investments. Even the little the bank gives me interest is given away.

For #2 I want to see policy focused on cycles so, for example, packaging companies (some of the richest people in the world are in packaging) are also responsible for waste collection and recycling / cleaning the sea etc.
And water companies are responsible for the recycling of clean water (just think of the mark-up on bottled water).

But 3, not so much.

I can't remember which batch of ancient Greeks had the idea first but Singapore do this too ... extremely high wages for politicians (and substantial training for them too). Corruption levels are so low that there is national outcry on the rare occasions that something untoward happens.

Compared to Vietnam, Thailand or Malaysia for example where slipping something to the cop who stops you for speeding (even if you weren't) is considered a normal way for them to put food on the table.

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02-03-2015, 04:15 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
Make it illegal not to pay a loan back? So, how does that work? Debtors prison? Forced servitude?

You do realize, don't you, that most loans are not paid back because the borrower can't pay it back. so, then what?

Communism failed for a reason, and this is just scratching the surface.

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02-03-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
1. Not feasible. A restriction on the amount of interest isn't a bad thing - but without a profit motive no bank or other financial institution has any reason to lend money.

2. Take the profit out of food - farmers will go find a more lucrative vocation. Take the profit out of energy production by making it "nationalized" and you'll have a poorly made product that barely works. Look to Venezuela as an example. Without the money coming in from their oil sales - they can't provide electricity to the masses. Look also at all the other communist bloc countries --- and watch Russia use energy as a political weapon. "Free power"??? Not going to happen.

3. No wages for politicians? Sounds good - but it'll make corruption even more likely, than less. You'll run out of idealists long before you'll run out of crooks......

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02-03-2015, 05:59 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
Quote:1: Ban interest on money.

Banks no longer lend out money.
No mortgages, no business loans, no personal loans etc...

Good luck:
- Buying a house
- Buying a car (because it would include finance)
- Starting a business
- Expanding an existing business
- Doing certain stock market strategies

It would drive up the need for loan sharks (illegal ones) that charge outrageous interest rates, but if people are desperate they will go to them to borrow money.

Quote:I would create a new national bank, lets call it The New Bank of England.

Putting every other bank out of business. Meaning massive loss in jobs.

Quote:It would be owned by everybody.

aka the government.

Quote:Because there is no self serving need by anybody to make money out of the transactions, there could be more flexibility. If your business is struggling and you cant afford your repayments. Then with negotiation your repayments could be lowered, with the aim of helping the individual, removing the need to make any profit from the debt.

You would need to create money out of it because it costs money.
You've just removed the private sector banking industry, all of it, and created a very large new bureaucracy agency. Where is that money coming from? Your tax revenue has just taken a massive hit and your welfare bill has drastically gone up.
You have had to come up with the dosh for buildings for these banks and pay wages to new government employees, aka expensive welfare.

OH and all this because you wanted to create a bank that not only makes 0 money but actually loses money. It loses money because people can file for bankruptcy, default on loans, money/people can go offshore etc... Yous till have all the expenses of running a bank with zero of the revenue stream.

Oh you want to increase taxes to pay for all this? So now you've created large unemployment, depleted the countries reserves, probably put the country into debt to pay for all this, you've forced everyone out of their private bank into a government owned/operated bank (the people obsessed with privacy and government spying would have a fucking field day). And now you want to increase tax?? Good luck getting re-elected.. Laughat

Quote:Because the bank is nationalised you could deduct repayments straight out of peoples taxes, before they even get their wage packet.

Shsss do you hear that? That's the sound of an angry mob storming parliament.

Quote:A certain percentage of losses will be expected, these however could be balanced by an increase in tax.

Called it. See above.

Quote:Easing credit restrictions and lending to people could increase the money velocity. A more healthier economy should increase tax revenue.

Well despite the fact that you've created massive unemployment by closing all private banks, you have to take into account inflation.

Quote:2: Non profit on basic essentials.

Energy firms would be nationalised, any profits made would not line any individuals pockets but would be fully invested in improving infrastructure and fed back into the system.

God damn this is getting painful.
Private energy > public owned power.
We have both here. The price is the same across the board (because it's regulated and supply and demand) but the private companies actually are more profitable because they're more efficient. Privatizing the entire industry (which the government sorta tried to do here not long ago) would increase efficiency, competition and drive prices down. Prices can still be regulated by the government so an argument that prices would increase is moot.

Quote: Potentially lowering prices, prices would be based upon providing and maintaining a service, not making a profit.

And so after creating a very costly public owned bank and creating massive unemployment and raising taxes, you want to buy up the energy sector and run it at a loss putting more strain on the countries books...

Quote:I would also include water and some food production.

ohhhhhhhhhhhh Jesus H Christ forgive this child for he knows not what he does.

Quote:If it costs 20 pence to make a loaf of bread, then thats the price you pay.

So now you've created massive unemployment by destroying the banking industry. Forced everyone to put their money into a government owned bank. Create a public owned bank that costs the country a small fortune every year. Brought up the private energy sector and run that at a loss. And now you want to buy up bread companies to run them at cost price putting all private owned bread companies out of business creating even more unemployment. Oh and did I mention the tax hikes?

If you sell bread at 20 pence a loaf than the only company that is gonna be able to sell bread is that company and it will force all others out of business. Here we have several bread companies, I'm sure it's the same in the UK. If you put all those out of business it would have flown on effects for logistic companies and retailers that sell bread, creating even more unemployment.

Quote:3: No wages for MPs.

I know some amazing people who work in communities who tirelessly work because they genuinely want to help others. Im sure some MPs are the same, however you do get career politicians. I would pay their expenses for their work, they would be provided for but would not draw a wage.

No stupid. They run the country they should have higher wages.
You need incentive for appropriately skilled people to take up those positions.

Quote:Thats about the basics of my ideas.

They're all fucking stupid. Every single one of them.
Here's a word of advice. You aint entitled to shit.

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