Some radical ideas.
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02-03-2015, 06:09 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
Quote:I would make it illegal to not pay it back.

So you want to imprison people now... The expenses continue to grown and the revenue continues to decrease...

You're creating the exact thing you're trying to prevent.

Quote:With no interest the amount you owe will never go up.

Meaning more cost for the state because money loses its value over time.
So it doesn't go up but it actually decreases in value.


I can't tell if you're serious about this public bank thing or you're trying to make some sort of misinformed point about taxes.

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03-03-2015, 05:42 PM
RE: Some radical ideas. Or how to wreck a countries economy in 5 easy steps
These ideas are just exceptionally poorly thought out. Were any single one of them enacted it would lead to a recession if all were enacted well I suppose there might be a better way to cause a country to go bankrupt but this will get you there sooner than later.

To sum up Debtors prisons for those people who owe you money cause you tanked the economy and they then lost their jobs, higher taxes across the board to fix problems you created, and massive government bureaucracies to oversee this quagmire you want to create. Not seeing any upside to these changes.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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03-03-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
Why do you always have to be so nasty muffs lol Rolleyes

It isnt illegal to not pay your debts, however recovery of it is enforced through the courts. You can go to prison for tax evasion as your swindling the tax payer and a governing body, if you purposely failed to pay back your debt to the bank then it would be classed as the same.

Large loans would need a guarantor or collateral as security, they would be backed up the same way as they are now. If debt needs to be wiped it gets wiped...the small tax I would collect off the populous would cover it, along with its running costs. Unless you become in a position again where you could resume repayments in the future, then it is resumed.

I dont know how much would be needed to cover it, however private businesses are driven by profit, what muffs described as efficency could also be called cost cutting, taking high risks or putting more on the end user. The bank wouldnt be running for profit and what can send debts "Bad" can be fines, charges, penalties and interest that can send the debt into an uncontrolable spiral.

There would not be any charges/interest and debt wouldnt grow. Money creation wouldnt need to be used to keep up, like the snake eating its own tail.

There would be a very healthy reserve ratio backed up by the entire nation with all debt, the whole system could be centralised, banks buy and own other banks, so it could be done, its just never been done on this scale.

All of the people who lose there jobs wont reduce demand of interest free debt, they will need to be employed by the government now it has control over the whole money supply.

With regards to the food industry. Resturants, cafes, food manufacturers would of course need materials, if we do live in a free market then having a reduction in your expenses and your overheads (energy,water) would, through competition drive prices cheaper benefiting everybody. The same wheat and materials I use would be sold to them as well. Just because I make a loaf for 20 pence, wont stop them selling theirs for 40. There would still be choice, people could still make money.

The bare necessities, the raw materials of food and water that we all need, shouldnt be produced for profit. The same for energy.

I know it sounds like "communism" but we live in a supposed free democracy. Governments have to be transparent, they are held to account.It would all be openly audited. Were not meant to have cruel dictators anymore.

The situation that we are in now economically, highly leveraged and insolvent wouldnt of happened with my system, because it wouldnt be driven to risk for profit.

Im not sure now about 3 since DLJ mentioned Singapores system, i need to look that up.

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03-03-2015, 07:13 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
Quote:Why do you always have to be so nasty muffs lol

To emphasize the point of how bad your political beliefs are.

Quote:It isnt illegal to not pay your debts, however recovery of it is enforced through the courts. You can go to prison for tax evasion as your swindling the tax payer and a governing body, if you purposely failed to pay back your debt to the bank then it would be classed as the same.

There's a reason why you can't go to jail for not being able to pay your debts, it's because it's not on the same category as crime (ie: if I get a loan and lose my job and can't pay off the loan I'm hardly a criminal, I'm just unlucky). Tax evasion is a crime because you're purposely, and knowingly, breaking the law.

There's a difference.

Debtors prison is stupid and doesn't work. Why lock up (costing the state money) people who were probably just unlucky or bad at balancing their books when they could be in the work place paying off that debt?

Debt is debt, it doesn't matter if it's owed to the government or a private company. You shouldn't try to redefine the legal side of paying back debt when the current one is perfectly fine.

Quote:If debt needs to be wiped it gets wiped...the small tax I would collect off the populous would cover it, along with its running costs.

It wouldn't be "small tax".
You have to cover the costs of:
- Infrastructure
- Employees
- Running costs (building insurance, power, rent etc..)
- Loses that comes with lending money
- Devaluation of money lent out
- Credit card fraud
- etc...

It's not a small venture. Remember, this isn't "a" bank, this would be (according to you) "thee" bank. It would be huge.

Quote:I dont know how much would be needed to cover it, however private businesses are driven by profit, what muffs described as efficency could also be called cost cutting, taking high risks or putting more on the end user.

Public companies are driven by profits too. State owned assets are run at a profit.
The efficiency comes from not having government bureaucracy. It also comes from private companies paying more and are able to attract higher skilled people to run the business. I reject this notion that it's only cost cutting, taking higher risks or putting more on the end user. Private companies actually provide a cheaper product than SOEs. They can take higher risks because they're not accountable to the public, only shareholders (and investing is a known risk, you accept that risk when you invest). Higher risk is not always a bad thing. And neither is cost cutting. Trimming the fat so to speak. It's a good thing actually, companies can often become bloated.

Quote:The bank wouldnt be running for profit

Which is a huge fucking problem because it would be too much of a financial strain on a countries balance sheet.

Quote:There would not be any charges/interest and debt wouldnt grow.

It would decrease because money devalues.
You'd actually be stupid NOT to take a loan. You could take a loan and use that loan to pay back the loan. Hell, you could get a ponzi scheme going where you just keep taking out loans...
It's so fucking stupid not to charge interest.

Quote:banks buy and own other banks

"banks" plural... LOL! You've created a bank that gives interest free loans... There will be absolutely zero other banks because they couldn't compete. Nobody is going to take an interest loan if they can take an interest free loan.

Quote:so it could be done

No it couldn't.

Quote:its just never been done on this scale.

For good reason. Because it's fucking stupid and would ruin any country that did it.

Quote:I know it sounds like "communism"

No, it sounds like some ignorant fucktards idea of how the world should be because he's pissed off people have more shit than him and he wants everyone to be brought down to his level because he's incapable of rising to theirs.
That's what it sounds like.



You still haven't addressed what you're going to do about putting the entire banking industry out of work. About losing all that revenue from the banking industry (bye bye so so much tax revenue) and replacing it with debt (welfare).

How you're going to pay to set up this bank. Where is that money coming from?

How you're going to buy up every wheat farm out there. Where does that money come from?

How you're going to buy up all the power companies. Where is that money coming from?

How you're going to buy up all the water companies. Where is that money coming from?

How you're going to afford the loses that all these SOEs will be incurring.
How you're going to make up all the lost tax revenue from buying up these places, running them at a lose and drastically increasing government employee numbers.

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03-03-2015, 08:47 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
(03-03-2015 07:13 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  No, it sounds like some ignorant fucktards idea of how the world should be because he's pissed off people have more shit than him and he wants everyone to be brought down to his level because he's incapable of rising to theirs.
That's what it sounds like.

Im older than you muffs. I have had extremely well paid jobs in the past, nothing lavish but above average and their comes a point where no matter how many clothes, jewelery and bits of technology you have, no matter how many bedrooms you have or how fast your car is, they are not the things that drive me, there nice but not necessary.

So your spiteful, possibly self judging statement about me is wrong. Its not about me, its about attemping to think of ways of making things fairer, for everybody.

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03-03-2015, 09:08 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
That's how the Soviet Union got started to, trying to be fair to all. They ended up settling for being equally unfair to most. The ruling class rose above the fray but just about everyone else got stuck.

The reality is what you are suggesting has been tried and it failed, and failed miserably. I'm sure you're familiar with the saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Well, that's what Communism is, the good intentions that paved the way to totalitarianism.

Human beings don't work the way you describe. People aren't going to lend money without getting something for it. Power companies are not going to innovate without an incentive . And, politicians who don't get paid need to eat too.

That doesn't mean society can't do better than we do. But, the ideas you describe are bad ideas. Sorry, but it's reality.

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03-03-2015, 10:48 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
Quote:Im older than you muffs.

Most people are and yet I'm smarter than most people. Age has little to do with it.

Quote:Its not about me, its about attemping to think of ways of making things fairer, for everybody.

By making high unemployment and boosting taxes up heavily and basically bringing the country into some sort of third world shit? How is that fair to everybody?

How is that fair to those that invested much in private banks/power companies/wheat farms? Or how is that fair for the people that no longer have a job because you closed their bank down, you know the ones that answer phones for $17hr or cleaned after hours for $16hr. Or even that banker that went through university (paid to do that too by the way, and not just in fees but in effort and lose of full time wages over those 3-4 years) to put himself in a better position?

It's not fair on everybody at all. It's trying to increase handouts to the poorest people in our society. The people who are often, and this is gonna sound mean but I don't care because it's true, the least deserving of handouts.

If you drop out of high school you should have a low paying job. If you get kicked out of university because you would rather play xbox than study than you should end up in a shitty retail position stocking shelves!
It's fair! If you go to university, get your lawyers degree or whatever than you should be paid a wage that is equal to the effort you put in to getting to that position. It's fair.
If you invest wisely and take the risk upon yourself to invest you SHOULD get a return on your money, much more than the 2% I get for keeping mine in the bank. It's fair.


The only thing that could come close to be classified as "unfair" is if you're born into a position of privilege. BUT! to that I say, simply being born in a western country means you're instantly better off than like 60% of the worlds population and yet I don't see you advocating that poor western nation citizens give up their life style because some kid in Bangladesh earns 10c a year making designer t-shirts.

Being born is complete random. I'm gay, I can't help that that's just who I am. I was born in NZ, I can't help that that's where I shot out my mothers vagina. Being born is completely random and so you shouldn't be punished, ie: via taking all your inheritance, simply because you were born where you were born. This is why I don't understand people that hate the royal family. I see hating the royal family as being in the completely same boat as hating gay people because we all can't help where we were born.


So anyway, the point is that people should be valued differently because everyone is different. I shouldn't get paid the same for stocking shelves as someone who studied law for 4 years.


And before you say this has nothing to do with this government owned bank of yours, yes it does, it has everything to do with it because the only reason you think it is a good idea is because you're trying to be "fair" to "everybody".
You're not being "fair" to "everybody", you're simply not.

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04-03-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
(02-03-2015 05:59 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:1: Ban interest on money.

Banks no longer lend out money.
No mortgages, no business loans, no personal loans etc...

Good luck:
- Buying a house
- Buying a car (because it would include finance)
- Starting a business
- Expanding an existing business
- Doing certain stock market strategies

It would drive up the need for loan sharks (illegal ones) that charge outrageous interest rates, but if people are desperate they will go to them to borrow money.

Quote:I would create a new national bank, lets call it The New Bank of England.

Putting every other bank out of business. Meaning massive loss in jobs.

Quote:It would be owned by everybody.

aka the government.

Quote:Because there is no self serving need by anybody to make money out of the transactions, there could be more flexibility. If your business is struggling and you cant afford your repayments. Then with negotiation your repayments could be lowered, with the aim of helping the individual, removing the need to make any profit from the debt.

You would need to create money out of it because it costs money.
You've just removed the private sector banking industry, all of it, and created a very large new bureaucracy agency. Where is that money coming from? Your tax revenue has just taken a massive hit and your welfare bill has drastically gone up.
You have had to come up with the dosh for buildings for these banks and pay wages to new government employees, aka expensive welfare.

OH and all this because you wanted to create a bank that not only makes 0 money but actually loses money. It loses money because people can file for bankruptcy, default on loans, money/people can go offshore etc... Yous till have all the expenses of running a bank with zero of the revenue stream.

Oh you want to increase taxes to pay for all this? So now you've created large unemployment, depleted the countries reserves, probably put the country into debt to pay for all this, you've forced everyone out of their private bank into a government owned/operated bank (the people obsessed with privacy and government spying would have a fucking field day). And now you want to increase tax?? Good luck getting re-elected.. Laughat

Quote:Because the bank is nationalised you could deduct repayments straight out of peoples taxes, before they even get their wage packet.

Shsss do you hear that? That's the sound of an angry mob storming parliament.

Quote:A certain percentage of losses will be expected, these however could be balanced by an increase in tax.

Called it. See above.

Quote:Easing credit restrictions and lending to people could increase the money velocity. A more healthier economy should increase tax revenue.

Well despite the fact that you've created massive unemployment by closing all private banks, you have to take into account inflation.

Quote:2: Non profit on basic essentials.

Energy firms would be nationalised, any profits made would not line any individuals pockets but would be fully invested in improving infrastructure and fed back into the system.

God damn this is getting painful.
Private energy > public owned power.
We have both here. The price is the same across the board (because it's regulated and supply and demand) but the private companies actually are more profitable because they're more efficient. Privatizing the entire industry (which the government sorta tried to do here not long ago) would increase efficiency, competition and drive prices down. Prices can still be regulated by the government so an argument that prices would increase is moot.

Quote: Potentially lowering prices, prices would be based upon providing and maintaining a service, not making a profit.

And so after creating a very costly public owned bank and creating massive unemployment and raising taxes, you want to buy up the energy sector and run it at a loss putting more strain on the countries books...

Quote:I would also include water and some food production.

ohhhhhhhhhhhh Jesus H Christ forgive this child for he knows not what he does.

Quote:If it costs 20 pence to make a loaf of bread, then thats the price you pay.

So now you've created massive unemployment by destroying the banking industry. Forced everyone to put their money into a government owned bank. Create a public owned bank that costs the country a small fortune every year. Brought up the private energy sector and run that at a loss. And now you want to buy up bread companies to run them at cost price putting all private owned bread companies out of business creating even more unemployment. Oh and did I mention the tax hikes?

If you sell bread at 20 pence a loaf than the only company that is gonna be able to sell bread is that company and it will force all others out of business. Here we have several bread companies, I'm sure it's the same in the UK. If you put all those out of business it would have flown on effects for logistic companies and retailers that sell bread, creating even more unemployment.

Quote:3: No wages for MPs.

I know some amazing people who work in communities who tirelessly work because they genuinely want to help others. Im sure some MPs are the same, however you do get career politicians. I would pay their expenses for their work, they would be provided for but would not draw a wage.

No stupid. They run the country they should have higher wages.
You need incentive for appropriately skilled people to take up those positions.

Quote:Thats about the basics of my ideas.

They're all fucking stupid. Every single one of them.
Here's a word of advice. You aint entitled to shit.
I don't know a lot about this but I'm sure there would be some guy out there who'd make a shit load of money if all this was implemented. If that guy is me then I think they are brilliant ideas.
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04-03-2015, 09:54 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
Not so radical actually. It's already being done! No government or new laws necessaryThumbsup

See http://www.kiva.org/about/how
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04-03-2015, 10:32 PM
RE: Some radical ideas.
(04-03-2015 09:54 PM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  Not so radical actually. It's already being done! No government or new laws necessaryThumbsup

See http://www.kiva.org/about/how

Wow Smile What an interesting project! For those who haven't followed the link, it's a micro-lending / micro-finance project/charity thing. Very very cool Smile Thanks Grassy! I might just put some cash in there. It's got lots of information pages about exactly what they do and how they do it.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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