Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
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02-09-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
What do you mean by pro-life? If you mean it by the pro-life political movement, then no. If you mean it as in life should be protected when ever possible, then yes.

Like jojo it is not black and white for me. I do not want to see the procedure made illegal or unduly restrictive. At times it is a medical necessity and I do not want those women to die because the procedure is not availably and if it is made illegal some women will still seek them out and will die from less than adequate facilities providing the service illegally.

I have no problems making it restricted to medical necessity after the point of viability. My opinion is if it could live it should live. I also feel if you have not decided by then to bad.

I have issues with the abortion loophole for minors. IMO minors should not receive non-emergency medical treatment with out parent or guardian permission or a court order.
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02-09-2014, 11:02 AM
RE: Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
(02-09-2014 06:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-09-2014 11:24 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I wouldn't go so far as to say I am pro life. I don't feel like abortion is appropriate for myself in my relationship. I don't really see a fetus at six weeks to be any different principly than a fetus at 28 weeks. I do support a woman's right to choose. Honestly, the whole debate makes me rather uncomfortable.

Your discomfort stems in part from not understanding the difference between a fetus at 6 weeks and one at 28 weeks. Drinking Beverage

I am not particularly educated in human gestation, but I know enough to appreciate the physiological and developmental difference. How I feel about it, or what I think about it philosophically, being another matter.

You won't see me getting any any arguments over it though. I am firmly in the camp of "I don't know". I leave it up to the mother and whomever to make those decisions. For my own part, and I mean this exclusively for myself, I don't believe in abortion for me and my partner. Whatever decisions someone else makes is up to them, and I don't pass any judgement.
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02-09-2014, 11:12 AM
RE: Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
I wasn't going to share this, but here I go. Sorry about the double post.

My wife and I recently discovered that she is pregnant. When the dollar store pregnancy test came up positive, we had briefly had the "abortion discussion". We had agreed before hand that abortion wasn't right for us, but now it was real and we where both pretty scared. I told her that if she wanted to consider that option that I would support her through it, and I meant it. We opted not to terminate the pregnancy. Now the some of the fear and shock has subsided, I feel like we definitely made the correct choice. If this had happened a few years ago, I don't know what we would have done. It might have been the case we went the other way.

So there it is. I am some misgivings about abortion, but I don't totally rule it out for myself and I certainly don't believe in making that choice for others.
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02-09-2014, 11:32 AM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2014 11:35 AM by Adrianime.)
RE: Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
Can I pretend to be pro forced-birth? Even though I am actually pro-abortion (not just pro-choice, one step up).

Atheism doesn't have too much to do with being pro-forced birth (IMO). It mostly has to do with what you view as a "person". That line however is not drawn in the same place for everyone. When is it a person? What makes it a person? Problem is *People make up their own answers for these questions*. Is it potential? Viability? brain activity? Depending on the person, the answer will be different. So in some ways, I understand the pro-forced birth camp a little. If I thought that fetus==person or zygote==person then I might be in that camp myself. Also, if I did believe those things, then I would probably rally and petition to have it be put into law. If I truly saw a newborn baby and a 6 week fetus as the same, I wouldn't suppress my conviction and accept that people are allowed to "kill their babies." Hell no, I would fight it.

(Kind of reminds me of Christians who believe non-Christians are going to hell, yet do nothing about it. I mean, if I really believed in hell, and I really believed non-Christians would be going there just for not being Christians, I would be desperately trying to "save" everybody I knew.)

The one camp I have a slight peev on is the people who think abortion is mostly wrong *unless* rape/incest/disability. I get the whole mother's life in danger thing, but saying that what you view as a person deserves to die because they are the product of rape or incest or because they have a disability is just hugely hypocritical to me.

Anyways, as far as I'm concerned the clump of cells that becomes a potential person has no inherent value...just the hopes and dreams that people have for it. Abortion is the way to go if you aren't ready Thumbsup.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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03-09-2014, 05:03 PM
RE: Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
(01-09-2014 10:40 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(01-09-2014 10:37 PM)Imago Wrote:  ...
So the cause of the pregnancy or reasons for wanting to abort are not what bother you - just how much fetal development has occurred? As in, if you're going to abort, decide quickly, for humane reasons? Since the more developed the unborn are the more likely they are to feel pain, etc.?

How many causes of pregnancy are there?

I can only think of one.

Consider

Facepalm I should be more correct with my wording, but I think she'll understand what I mean.

It is self-evident that I do not need religion or God to be a moral, happy, productive human being.
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03-09-2014, 05:06 PM
RE: Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
(01-09-2014 11:24 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I wouldn't go so far as to say I am pro life. I don't feel like abortion is appropriate for myself in my relationship. I don't really see a fetus at six weeks to be any different principly than a fetus at 28 weeks. I do support a woman's right to choose. Honestly, the whole debate makes me rather uncomfortable.

I now see labeling as very tricky in this issue. Labeling is handy for politics, so people know which basic side you're on. Pro-choice vs. pro-life. However, when you consider individuals labels get tricky. For instance, it may be that people who identify as pro-choice are actually not pro-choice in every circumstance. Some may favor some kind of restriction on abortion based on how the pregnancy occurred or how far along in the pregnancy abortion is allowed. Some who identify as pro-life may make exceptions for when abortion can occur.

It is self-evident that I do not need religion or God to be a moral, happy, productive human being.
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03-09-2014, 05:12 PM
RE: Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
(02-09-2014 09:04 AM)wazzel Wrote:  What do you mean by pro-life? If you mean it by the pro-life political movement, then no. If you mean it as in life should be protected when ever possible, then yes.

Like jojo it is not black and white for me. I do not want to see the procedure made illegal or unduly restrictive. At times it is a medical necessity and I do not want those women to die because the procedure is not availably and if it is made illegal some women will still seek them out and will die from less than adequate facilities providing the service illegally.

I have no problems making it restricted to medical necessity after the point of viability. My opinion is if it could live it should live. I also feel if you have not decided by then to bad.

I have issues with the abortion loophole for minors. IMO minors should not receive non-emergency medical treatment with out parent or guardian permission or a court order.

After some thought, I suppose I would define "pro-life" as favoring the unborn over the pregnant girl or woman and/or being mostly unsupportive politically of others' abortions. Supportive meaning that you would not try to stop others from aborting.

It is self-evident that I do not need religion or God to be a moral, happy, productive human being.
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03-09-2014, 05:16 PM
RE: Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
(02-09-2014 11:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I wasn't going to share this, but here I go. Sorry about the double post.

My wife and I recently discovered that she is pregnant. When the dollar store pregnancy test came up positive, we had briefly had the "abortion discussion". We had agreed before hand that abortion wasn't right for us, but now it was real and we where both pretty scared. I told her that if she wanted to consider that option that I would support her through it, and I meant it. We opted not to terminate the pregnancy. Now the some of the fear and shock has subsided, I feel like we definitely made the correct choice. If this had happened a few years ago, I don't know what we would have done. It might have been the case we went the other way.

So there it is. I am some misgivings about abortion, but I don't totally rule it out for myself and I certainly don't believe in making that choice for others.

I appreciate you sharing that. Something so personal is not easy to offer up to strangers who might find something to be ravenous about. It is true that we *believe* we might react a certain way to a situation. When it's real, we may surprise ourselves.

It is self-evident that I do not need religion or God to be a moral, happy, productive human being.
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03-09-2014, 05:36 PM
RE: Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
(02-09-2014 11:32 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Can I pretend to be pro forced-birth? Even though I am actually pro-abortion (not just pro-choice, one step up).

Atheism doesn't have too much to do with being pro-forced birth (IMO). It mostly has to do with what you view as a "person". That line however is not drawn in the same place for everyone. When is it a person? What makes it a person? Problem is *People make up their own answers for these questions*. Is it potential? Viability? brain activity? Depending on the person, the answer will be different. So in some ways, I understand the pro-forced birth camp a little. If I thought that fetus==person or zygote==person then I might be in that camp myself. Also, if I did believe those things, then I would probably rally and petition to have it be put into law. If I truly saw a newborn baby and a 6 week fetus as the same, I wouldn't suppress my conviction and accept that people are allowed to "kill their babies." Hell no, I would fight it.

(Kind of reminds me of Christians who believe non-Christians are going to hell, yet do nothing about it. I mean, if I really believed in hell, and I really believed non-Christians would be going there just for not being Christians, I would be desperately trying to "save" everybody I knew.)

The one camp I have a slight peev on is the people who think abortion is mostly wrong *unless* rape/incest/disability. I get the whole mother's life in danger thing, but saying that what you view as a person deserves to die because they are the product of rape or incest or because they have a disability is just hugely hypocritical to me.

Anyways, as far as I'm concerned the clump of cells that becomes a potential person has no inherent value...just the hopes and dreams that people have for it. Abortion is the way to go if you aren't ready Thumbsup.

Playing the devil's advocate is fun. I do it, too, from time to time. It would be interesting to meet the equivalent of myself on the other side of the abortion issue spectrum.

Honestly, that has always irritated me, too - people who make exceptions for rape, especially, out of "compassion." If all females have the right to manage their own reproductive ability, including experiencing pregnancy and giving birth, then why should one girl or woman be favored over another regarding the right to choose? They are all equal. Some rape victims choose to be mothers and dearly love that child. I know three such women. Some choose abortion. Point is - it's up to her, that's what choice is. I don't like the unfairness and the judging that it implies. And also, if you make exception for rape, then it requires the woman to jump through some kind of hoops, so to speak, to qualify herself for abortion. I think that such a thing is inherently flawed. Some language that was stricken from a bill proposed in my home state a couple years ago stated that a woman on Medicaid wanting an abortion and claiming rape would only receive coverage if she had already reported the rape to police within a certain period of time. If you know anything about rape, you know how messed up and flawed that it is.

It is self-evident that I do not need religion or God to be a moral, happy, productive human being.
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03-09-2014, 05:49 PM
RE: Some sincere questions for pro-life atheists, no debate intended
(02-09-2014 11:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  My wife and I recently discovered that she is pregnant.

CONGRATULATIONS!!

Thumbsup

TTA baby #3. Pretty soon we are going to need a parenting section of the forum Smile


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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