Some straight bull...
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07-01-2016, 12:15 AM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2016 12:19 AM by Noric.)
Some straight bull...
Preface: I'm not really trying to impress anybody by being that one theist who criticizes religion, so if anything comes off as insincere, I apologize. This is precisely why I decided to join this forum, out of all the places I could have gone, I decided to settle here. I feel safer here than in a lot of places I've been on the Internet.

See this is exactly why I have pretty prominent problems with some interpretations of faith (mainly Christian, but it's relative I'm sure). I go off and search up random things for the sake of knowing what people think and accept about their faith, lack thereof, or ongoing "journey" as it were. Let's just assume there are some objective "good" things people can be and do, devoid of all the philosophy and relativism, you're just a straight up decent human being. You just happen to not believe in a deity. I've always been of the belief, regardless of how I view religion, that good people who do good things deserve good things in return. Karma right? That said, I was HIGHLY put off by the following...

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Objec/G5-003.htm

Quote:So-called good non-believers are going to be cast into hell by the boat loads and I, for one, hope I am in such a state that it seems less sickening than it does now. There will be more former murderers in heaven who GENUINELY repented in their last minutes than there will be lifelong do-gooders who were never committed to obeying or believing the Lord; never concerned with dealing with their sin (Matthew 7:17-23). The fate of hell is tragic and it's tragic for at least that reason.

To say I was only put off is being infinitely nicer and calmer than my ignition reaction. That's like a guy proposing to a lady, giving her all the accolades and love in the world, then at some point in the engagement he finds out that she doesn't like vanilla ice cream, so he calls off the wedding. Like, nobody cares about a pamphlet blog for feelgooders sprinkled around the Internet, but my God (heh heh) this is disgusting. This goes so flagrantly against basic moral concepts it's insane. I'll admit I was a little depressed after reading it, because what if one day I decide to just let go of what little strength in my belief I have left, but still strive to be the best person I can be, that's suddenly all null and void? But in that process, if somebody kills my brother, God forbid, his muderer gets in if he says a rosary before I kill hi--- I mean the state gives him a lethal injection? And it succeeded in making me slightly saddened because I like new things. I like looking for new knowledge I didn't have the day before, and if someday that happens to lead me away from any faith whatsoever... Seems like I'm shit out of luck.

I just needed to get that off my chest because admittedly, and a bit ashamedly, this scared me. That's how fear tactics work then right?

Acceptance is a hell of a drug.
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07-01-2016, 01:03 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  ... this scared me.

Why? There's no sane reason to give the hell fantasy the slightest credence; the concept is childish and absurd. One might just as well fear that Pluto tumble out of its orbit and fall onto your house. The fact that a sizable group of people claim the concept causes them anxiety only shows that the intellectual faculty of our culture is immature, not that the concept warrants merit.
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07-01-2016, 05:21 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 01:03 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  ... this scared me.

Why? There's no sane reason to give the hell fantasy the slightest credence; the concept is childish and absurd. One might just as well fear that Pluto tumble out of its orbit and fall onto your house. The fact that a sizable group of people claim the concept causes them anxiety only shows that the intellectual faculty of our culture is immature, not that the concept warrants merit.
Or, 100,000 lemmings *can* be wrong.
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07-01-2016, 06:16 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  Preface: I'm not really trying to impress anybody by being that one theist who criticizes religion, so if anything comes off as insincere, I apologize. This is precisely why I decided to join this forum, out of all the places I could have gone, I decided to settle here. I feel safer here than in a lot of places I've been on the Internet.

See this is exactly why I have pretty prominent problems with some interpretations of faith (mainly Christian, but it's relative I'm sure). I go off and search up random things for the sake of knowing what people think and accept about their faith, lack thereof, or ongoing "journey" as it were. Let's just assume there are some objective "good" things people can be and do, devoid of all the philosophy and relativism, you're just a straight up decent human being. You just happen to not believe in a deity. I've always been of the belief, regardless of how I view religion, that good people who do good things deserve good things in return. Karma right? That said, I was HIGHLY put off by the following...

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Objec/G5-003.htm

Quote:So-called good non-believers are going to be cast into hell by the boat loads and I, for one, hope I am in such a state that it seems less sickening than it does now. There will be more former murderers in heaven who GENUINELY repented in their last minutes than there will be lifelong do-gooders who were never committed to obeying or believing the Lord; never concerned with dealing with their sin (Matthew 7:17-23). The fate of hell is tragic and it's tragic for at least that reason.

To say I was only put off is being infinitely nicer and calmer than my ignition reaction. That's like a guy proposing to a lady, giving her all the accolades and love in the world, then at some point in the engagement he finds out that she doesn't like vanilla ice cream, so he calls off the wedding. Like, nobody cares about a pamphlet blog for feelgooders sprinkled around the Internet, but my God (heh heh) this is disgusting. This goes so flagrantly against basic moral concepts it's insane. I'll admit I was a little depressed after reading it, because what if one day I decide to just let go of what little strength in my belief I have left, but still strive to be the best person I can be, that's suddenly all null and void? But in that process, if somebody kills my brother, God forbid, his muderer gets in if he says a rosary before I kill hi--- I mean the state gives him a lethal injection? And it succeeded in making me slightly saddened because I like new things. I like looking for new knowledge I didn't have the day before, and if someday that happens to lead me away from any faith whatsoever... Seems like I'm shit out of luck.

I just needed to get that off my chest because admittedly, and a bit ashamedly, this scared me. That's how fear tactics work then right?

There are so many different views within Christianity about what hell is, they cannot agree among themselves about what it is, it's existence, it's duration, it's permanence, etc. Every element is up for debate among Christians.





Every single element of faith has widely disparate viewpoints within Christianity, they can pick up the big red phone and give us a call when they figure it out. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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07-01-2016, 06:23 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
Scarring someone as a way to shut down rational thought and keep them in the religion is the main goal.

Religion is enforced from parents, siblings and other kids in the community. If the fear of the religion doesn't get you, then the fear of losing family and friends might.

In some cases there is also a fear of losing your job.

Any religion grounded in fear isn't worth a life time of stress thinking about the hell its putting you through while you're alive.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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07-01-2016, 06:25 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
So if God exists, (s)he can forgive any sin, except for one, the sin of non-belief.
Yeah, seems really loving. Drinking Beverage

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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07-01-2016, 08:04 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  Preface: I'm not really trying to impress anybody by being that one theist who criticizes religion, so if anything comes off as insincere, I apologize. This is precisely why I decided to join this forum, out of all the places I could have gone, I decided to settle here. I feel safer here than in a lot of places I've been on the Internet.

See this is exactly why I have pretty prominent problems with some interpretations of faith (mainly Christian, but it's relative I'm sure). I go off and search up random things for the sake of knowing what people think and accept about their faith, lack thereof, or ongoing "journey" as it were. Let's just assume there are some objective "good" things people can be and do, devoid of all the philosophy and relativism, you're just a straight up decent human being. You just happen to not believe in a deity. I've always been of the belief, regardless of how I view religion, that good people who do good things deserve good things in return. Karma right? That said, I was HIGHLY put off by the following...

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Objec/G5-003.htm

Quote:So-called good non-believers are going to be cast into hell by the boat loads and I, for one, hope I am in such a state that it seems less sickening than it does now. There will be more former murderers in heaven who GENUINELY repented in their last minutes than there will be lifelong do-gooders who were never committed to obeying or believing the Lord; never concerned with dealing with their sin (Matthew 7:17-23). The fate of hell is tragic and it's tragic for at least that reason.

To say I was only put off is being infinitely nicer and calmer than my ignition reaction. That's like a guy proposing to a lady, giving her all the accolades and love in the world, then at some point in the engagement he finds out that she doesn't like vanilla ice cream, so he calls off the wedding. Like, nobody cares about a pamphlet blog for feelgooders sprinkled around the Internet, but my God (heh heh) this is disgusting. This goes so flagrantly against basic moral concepts it's insane. I'll admit I was a little depressed after reading it, because what if one day I decide to just let go of what little strength in my belief I have left, but still strive to be the best person I can be, that's suddenly all null and void? But in that process, if somebody kills my brother, God forbid, his muderer gets in if he says a rosary before I kill hi--- I mean the state gives him a lethal injection? And it succeeded in making me slightly saddened because I like new things. I like looking for new knowledge I didn't have the day before, and if someday that happens to lead me away from any faith whatsoever... Seems like I'm shit out of luck.

I just needed to get that off my chest because admittedly, and a bit ashamedly, this scared me. That's how fear tactics work then right?

They won, in your case. That is what the Hell fantasy is designed to do is scare you into giving money to your church. Nothing more, but ask yourself if this fantasy of a God who is all loving could actually plan to torture everyone who doesn't jump thru all th hoops exactly correctly, and to torture them for ever and for ever? COuld it be possible? The obvious answer is it could not be, so relax dude.
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07-01-2016, 08:31 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
We imagine that we have "souls," fabricate the concept of "eternal life" and then fantasize a place called "heaven," complete with streets of gold, calorie free foods, virgins and whatever else mankind can come up with. Christians and Muslims imagine it so vividly and repeat the fantasy so often that they actually believe it to be reality. How bizarre can the fantasies get? Fly to Cairo and take a look at the Great Pyramid. There is the pyramid itself, still one of the largest man made objects on earth. In addition there is the whole mummification process, the disassembled boats, the sacred artwork and so on. All of this was designed to help the pharaoh reach the afterlife. We look at it now and we all know, with absolute certainty, that it was a complete and total waste of time. The Egyptian notion of the afterlife was a fantasy.

Today's religious notion of the afterlife is a fantasy in exactly the same way. Souls and therefore Heaven and Hell are completely imaginary...Just like God.

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07-01-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
A history of Hell shows it to be what it is, a manufactured concept. The christian perspective of Hell appears out of step with many other religions and philosophies and is obviously predicated on the idea that if you "embrace Jebus" you will be saved.

Interesting nevertheless.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0038xb6

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Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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07-01-2016, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2016 09:43 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: Some straight bull...
Have some TheraminTrees. The whole video talks about his deconversion. The entire video is worth a watch, but the part where he discusses Hell is from about 15:52 to 17:54.





The entirety of the Bible has only a single "moral" rule in it: Obey God. Keep the covenant contracts exactly as he has laid out -- whether you wanted to be part of the agreement or not, it's not like you had any choice in it. You could be the most bloodthirsty, rapacious, genocidal maniac, but so long as you obeyed God you were golden. All the rest of morality put forth by the Bible exists solely in the context of "this is a hoop God makes you jump through" -- whether it's the commandments not to kill or steal, or the commandments not to eat shellfish, not to wear mixed fabrics, or not to shave. Nothing is ever put forward as an innately, objectively moral standard -- it's all good or bad for no more reason than God issued an edict. If God issues rules legitimizing slavery and specific commands demanding it (and the Bible says He did), then that's all fine and dandy. If God makes rules about how girls can be sold by their fathers to husbands who they have every desire to stay as far away from as possible, for a fixed price of thirty shekels, then that's perfectly legit, and marital rape isn't actually rape by God's law. And if God later makes or reveals or alters a new section of the covenant whereby someone who doesn't believe he even exists (say, an Australian Aborigine in the second century CE who never even heard the legends) is to be punished through eternal torture for violation of the newly-worldwide covenant... well, that IS what happens, according to the Bible.

When we stop imagining the character of God as innately good -- something that the Bible never puts forward (to the best of my recollection) save in the ass-kissing prayers of people trying to solicit a blessing or avoid a smiting -- a very different picture of the Good Book's central figure emerges. I don't think I've ever heard a better condemnation than this one from the play/film "God On Trial", wherein Jewish prisoners in a Nazi concentration camp stage a mock trial of God for abandoning the covenant with them.



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