Some straight bull...
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07-01-2016, 10:11 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  Preface: I'm not really trying to impress anybody by being that one theist who criticizes religion, so if anything comes off as insincere, I apologize. This is precisely why I decided to join this forum, out of all the places I could have gone, I decided to settle here. I feel safer here than in a lot of places I've been on the Internet.

See this is exactly why I have pretty prominent problems with some interpretations of faith (mainly Christian, but it's relative I'm sure). I go off and search up random things for the sake of knowing what people think and accept about their faith, lack thereof, or ongoing "journey" as it were. Let's just assume there are some objective "good" things people can be and do, devoid of all the philosophy and relativism, you're just a straight up decent human being. You just happen to not believe in a deity. I've always been of the belief, regardless of how I view religion, that good people who do good things deserve good things in return. Karma right? That said, I was HIGHLY put off by the following...

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Objec/G5-003.htm

Quote:So-called good non-believers are going to be cast into hell by the boat loads and I, for one, hope I am in such a state that it seems less sickening than it does now. There will be more former murderers in heaven who GENUINELY repented in their last minutes than there will be lifelong do-gooders who were never committed to obeying or believing the Lord; never concerned with dealing with their sin (Matthew 7:17-23). The fate of hell is tragic and it's tragic for at least that reason.

To say I was only put off is being infinitely nicer and calmer than my ignition reaction. That's like a guy proposing to a lady, giving her all the accolades and love in the world, then at some point in the engagement he finds out that she doesn't like vanilla ice cream, so he calls off the wedding. Like, nobody cares about a pamphlet blog for feelgooders sprinkled around the Internet, but my God (heh heh) this is disgusting. This goes so flagrantly against basic moral concepts it's insane. I'll admit I was a little depressed after reading it, because what if one day I decide to just let go of what little strength in my belief I have left, but still strive to be the best person I can be, that's suddenly all null and void? But in that process, if somebody kills my brother, God forbid, his muderer gets in if he says a rosary before I kill hi--- I mean the state gives him a lethal injection? And it succeeded in making me slightly saddened because I like new things. I like looking for new knowledge I didn't have the day before, and if someday that happens to lead me away from any faith whatsoever... Seems like I'm shit out of luck.

I just needed to get that off my chest because admittedly, and a bit ashamedly, this scared me. That's how fear tactics work then right?

This person is rationalizing to cover for his resentment and fear of those who take on the responsibility of thinking for themselves. It's nothing more than that and should be dismissed.

You said something that I disagree with highly: Let's just assume there are some objective "good" things people can be and do, devoid of all the philosophy and relativism

Everyone needs philosophy, a basic understanding of reality, in order to know what is good. You need an objective standard of value. You need to know what "the good" is, how to discover it and what virtues to practice in order to get it. This requires a set of general principles, principles based on the facts of man's existence and his nature. This is philosophy. If you don't have it or you have a hodge podge of contradictory ideas you will be left without any consistent and rational guidance for your choices and actions. You'll not be able to act long range, but instead on the expedience of the moment.

Theism offers no guidance on this issue. It has no principles and no objective standard for judging what is good. It holds to the primacy of consciousness metaphysics, so that "the good" is whatever a ruling consciousness decides. This is metaphysical subjectivism, plain and simple. What theism offers is a set of moral commandments, not a set of principles. It tells you that theft, murder, envy, dishonesty, and other supposed evils are bad but not why, other than it displeases the ruling consciousness. If you look for an objective principle, you'll find a big blank out.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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07-01-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 10:11 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  You said something that I disagree with highly: Let's just assume there are some objective "good" things people can be and do, devoid of all the philosophy and relativism

Everyone needs philosophy, a basic understanding of reality, in order to know what is good. You need an objective standard of value. You need to know what "the good" is, how to discover it and what virtues to practice in order to get it. This requires a set of general principles, principles based on the facts of man's existence and his nature. This is philosophy. If you don't have it or you have a hodge podge of contradictory ideas you will be left without any consistent and rational guidance for your choices and actions. You'll not be able to act long range, but instead on the expedience of the moment.

Oh trust me I don't believe that any more than you do, I just didn't feel like adding that aspect for the sake of the point, so I turned "good" into an outlying objective because it didn't necessarily change my point... how good is defined... quite the opposite really in that it doesn't even matter according to this article.

Acceptance is a hell of a drug.
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07-01-2016, 04:24 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 02:21 PM)Noric Wrote:  
(07-01-2016 10:11 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  You said something that I disagree with highly: Let's just assume there are some objective "good" things people can be and do, devoid of all the philosophy and relativism

Everyone needs philosophy, a basic understanding of reality, in order to know what is good. You need an objective standard of value. You need to know what "the good" is, how to discover it and what virtues to practice in order to get it. This requires a set of general principles, principles based on the facts of man's existence and his nature. This is philosophy. If you don't have it or you have a hodge podge of contradictory ideas you will be left without any consistent and rational guidance for your choices and actions. You'll not be able to act long range, but instead on the expedience of the moment.

Oh trust me I don't believe that any more than you do, I just didn't feel like adding that aspect for the sake of the point, so I turned "good" into an outlying objective because it didn't necessarily change my point... how good is defined... quite the opposite really in that it doesn't even matter according to this article.

I don't know what a theist could even mean by the concept "objective" given their commitment to subjectivism.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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07-01-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 04:24 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(07-01-2016 02:21 PM)Noric Wrote:  Oh trust me I don't believe that any more than you do, I just didn't feel like adding that aspect for the sake of the point, so I turned "good" into an outlying objective because it didn't necessarily change my point... how good is defined... quite the opposite really in that it doesn't even matter according to this article.

I don't know what a theist could even mean by the concept "objective" given their commitment to subjectivism.

The same thing any person would mean when saying objective? I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by that...

Acceptance is a hell of a drug.
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07-01-2016, 05:40 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 04:31 PM)Noric Wrote:  
(07-01-2016 04:24 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I don't know what a theist could even mean by the concept "objective" given their commitment to subjectivism.

The same thing any person would mean when saying objective? I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by that...

Never mind. Forget I said anything. I'm feeling grumpy because I've been spending time on Christianforums.com. Pay no attention to what I said.

I agree with you about the passage you quoted. It is absurd. Like I said, this is a person who resents and fears those who think for themselves. It should be an embarrassment to Christians.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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07-01-2016, 06:11 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  I'll admit I was a little depressed after reading it, because what if one day I decide to just let go of what little strength in my belief I have left, but still strive to be the best person I can be, that's suddenly all null and void? ... And it succeeded in making me slightly saddened because I like new things. I like looking for new knowledge I didn't have the day before, and if someday that happens to lead me away from any faith whatsoever... Seems like I'm shit out of luck.

Don't worry, it doesn't matter. Your options are pretty simple:

- There's no god, in which case it doesn't matter. No heaven, no hell and your best hope is that you reincarnate as something entertaining.
- There's a rational and just god, in which case it doesn't matter. Any reasonable deity isn't even going to create hell, much less send you there because you believed the wrong bunch of nomadic goat-herders.
- There's a barking mad god that requires your belief, in which case it doesn't matter. Heaven and hell will be distinguishable only by the finest of forensic analyses and his believers are in for one very nasty surprise.

Now go out into the world and find whatever it is that is most beautiful to you. And while looking upon it ask yourself, how could this wonder have been wrought by a mad deity?

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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07-01-2016, 06:45 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
Here you go: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid699430

Within the above thread I have a meme that explains where the concept of hell came from and why it's a man-made bunch of effluvium.

I would attach it here but for some reason there is a limit to the amount of attachments I can make so I can't attach anything anymore unless I delete the older ones, which would defeat the purpose of making posts with attachments.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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07-01-2016, 07:58 PM
RE: Some straight bull...



---
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07-01-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 06:11 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Don't worry, it doesn't matter. Your options are pretty simple:

- There's no god, in which case it doesn't matter. No heaven, no hell and your best hope is that you reincarnate as something entertaining.
- There's a rational and just god, in which case it doesn't matter. Any reasonable deity isn't even going to create hell, much less send you there because you believed the wrong bunch of nomadic goat-herders.
- There's a barking mad god that requires your belief, in which case it doesn't matter. Heaven and hell will be distinguishable only by the finest of forensic analyses and his believers are in for one very nasty surprise.

Now go out into the world and find whatever it is that is most beautiful to you. And while looking upon it ask yourself, how could this wonder have been wrought by a mad deity?

Stop being so damn insightful. That's twice already.

Acceptance is a hell of a drug.
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07-01-2016, 09:03 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 08:54 PM)Noric Wrote:  Stop being so damn insightful.

You did that on purpose. Smile
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