Some straight bull...
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08-01-2016, 01:57 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  ... I just needed to get that off my chest because admittedly, and a bit ashamedly, this scared me. That's how fear tactics work then right?

Yes, sadly, this is how fear tactics work. Like you, I am also a theist, but my outlook and theology are completely different.

Perhaps if you consider this matter a little differently, some of the fear that you’re experiencing will be alleviated. We both believe in G-d, and so we both believe that G-d created mankind. Why then would we have these physical bodies to interact in this physical world if our primary focus was in spiritual matters? (Doesn’t G-d already have angels to fill that role?)

Additionally, G-d provided for our every physical need in order to live happy, healthy, productive lives. We live on this planet that is perfectly suited to our needs. We have food, air, energy, and our bodies can heal themselves and reproduce (it’s almost like we evolved to be perfectly adapted to this environment!). Why would G-d put us here, take such good care to address our physical needs, and then deliberately leave this gaping hole in our “spiritual needs”?

As you are a Christian, we probably both agree that the G-d gave the Torah to Moses. The Torah does provide a cliff-notes version of creation and Jewish history up until the point when the Jews enter the promised land, but the information that G-d felt was most important is about how to live your life, and not what happens to you when you die if you don’t believe in him. If you believe that G-d is perfect and infinite, then how can you also accept that G-d screwed up and forgot to mention this really important “spiritual requirement” to his chosen people? It just doesn’t make sense. He’s either perfect or he’s not perfect.

Your job as a human is to interact with your physical environment in a way that is moral and increases your pleasure without detracting from the quality of life for others. While you may certainly find pleasure and comfort in contemplating the existence of G-d, it is not your primary role as a human. If it was, this would have been made crystal clear from the get-go of human existence because all other needs have been provided for.
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08-01-2016, 06:05 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 08:54 PM)Noric Wrote:  
(07-01-2016 06:11 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Don't worry, it doesn't matter. Your options are pretty simple:

- There's no god, in which case it doesn't matter. No heaven, no hell and your best hope is that you reincarnate as something entertaining.
- There's a rational and just god, in which case it doesn't matter. Any reasonable deity isn't even going to create hell, much less send you there because you believed the wrong bunch of nomadic goat-herders.
- There's a barking mad god that requires your belief, in which case it doesn't matter. Heaven and hell will be distinguishable only by the finest of forensic analyses and his believers are in for one very nasty surprise.

Now go out into the world and find whatever it is that is most beautiful to you. And while looking upon it ask yourself, how could this wonder have been wrought by a mad deity?

Stop being so damn insightful. That's twice already.

Typical theist, telling me to stop thinking.

You're the one doing all the heavy lifting though, much as I'd like to take the credit. You're asking questions and listening to the answers and that's two traits that are rare to see in a theist in these parts. Most turn up with their ears plugged and their eyes screwed shut spoiling for a fight so they can reaffirm their belief that all unbelievers are horrible, misguided and lost. All the insight in the world won't change them one jot.

The tricks and traps of organised religion are easy to spot from the outside. All I'm doing is holding aside the curtain and pointing to the little fellow working the pedals.

If you want a slightly different perspective from us heathens then I would highly recommend the forum run by my old church. They are extremely liberal and very laid back. Fundamentalists actually have a worse time over their because it's believers who let loose at them with both barrels. Here's the link if you're interested: WonderCafe2

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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08-01-2016, 06:40 PM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2016 06:45 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  I feel safer here than in a lot of places I've been on the Internet.

You poor soul. You haven't been here very long have you.

(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  That's how fear tactics work then right?

Have you seen Aurora's naughty chair? That is how fear tactics work.

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#sigh
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09-01-2016, 02:07 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(08-01-2016 01:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ... Your job as a human is ...

This is one of the most obnoxious thorns on the branches of religion, that human beings "owe" something to some god. The notion of "owing" anything to anyone as a cost of existence is repugnant enough but it's especially repellent when the obligation is to something manifestly anti-human.

Our "job" as human beings is to stomp that vile concept into dust; we don't owe anything.

Certainly in the course of a lifetime we assume obligations, some voluntary, others imposed, to people and to milieu, but every one is specific, and none burden existence itself. None, that is, except what religion tries to inflict.

Even without religion there is a general assumption we "owe" the universe "becoming a better person". Pshaw! No. The universe couldn't care less. Becoming a "better person" is how we navigate culture to make life something other than an ordeal, but there's no obligation in that practice, just sheer pragmatism.

Is a mosquito's "job" to become a better mosquito? I don't owe any more allegiance to the universe than a mosquito does, even if the difference between a blood-sucking parasite and most gods is too infinitesimal to be detected.
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09-01-2016, 02:34 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(09-01-2016 02:07 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(08-01-2016 01:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ... Your job as a human is ...

This is one of the most obnoxious thorns on the branches of religion, that human beings "owe" something to some god. The notion of "owing" anything to anyone as a cost of existence is repugnant enough but it's especially repellent when the obligation is to something manifestly anti-human.

Our "job" as human beings is to stomp that vile concept into dust; we don't owe anything.

Certainly in the course of a lifetime we assume obligations, some voluntary, others imposed, to people and to milieu, but every one is specific, and none burden existence itself. None, that is, except what religion tries to inflict.

Even without religion there is a general assumption we "owe" the universe "becoming a better person". Pshaw! No. The universe couldn't care less. Becoming a "better person" is how we navigate culture to make life something other than an ordeal, but there's no obligation in that practice, just sheer pragmatism.

Is a mosquito's "job" to become a better mosquito? I don't owe any more allegiance to the universe than a mosquito does, even if the difference between a blood-sucking parasite and most gods is too infinitesimal to be detected.

I don't believe that was the point of the response, which I enjoyed very much actually. I too think that as humans, put here or otherwise, we're not really supposed to worry as much about afterwards as the present, and the impact we leave here. I remember years ago coming to that in some philosophy discussions in school... Well, as deep as philosophy can go with a naive high schooler. It's definitely a subject I enjoy talking about and contemplating, but as far as life is concerned, we should do the best we can for the now and for the people that depend on us here, whatever happens after we die is gonna happen regardless. Death doesn't care who is right or wrong...

Acceptance is a hell of a drug.
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09-01-2016, 02:36 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(08-01-2016 01:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  ... I just needed to get that off my chest because admittedly, and a bit ashamedly, this scared me. That's how fear tactics work then right?

Yes, sadly, this is how fear tactics work. Like you, I am also a theist, but my outlook and theology are completely different.

Perhaps if you consider this matter a little differently, some of the fear that you’re experiencing will be alleviated. We both believe in G-d, and so we both believe that G-d created mankind. Why then would we have these physical bodies to interact in this physical world if our primary focus was in spiritual matters? (Doesn’t G-d already have angels to fill that role?)

Additionally, G-d provided for our every physical need in order to live happy, healthy, productive lives. We live on this planet that is perfectly suited to our needs. We have food, air, energy, and our bodies can heal themselves and reproduce (it’s almost like we evolved to be perfectly adapted to this environment!). Why would G-d put us here, take such good care to address our physical needs, and then deliberately leave this gaping hole in our “spiritual needs”?

As you are a Christian, we probably both agree that the G-d gave the Torah to Moses. The Torah does provide a cliff-notes version of creation and Jewish history up until the point when the Jews enter the promised land, but the information that G-d felt was most important is about how to live your life, and not what happens to you when you die if you don’t believe in him. If you believe that G-d is perfect and infinite, then how can you also accept that G-d screwed up and forgot to mention this really important “spiritual requirement” to his chosen people? It just doesn’t make sense. He’s either perfect or he’s not perfect.

Your job as a human is to interact with your physical environment in a way that is moral and increases your pleasure without detracting from the quality of life for others. While you may certainly find pleasure and comfort in contemplating the existence of G-d, it is not your primary role as a human. If it was, this would have been made crystal clear from the get-go of human existence because all other needs have been provided for.

This is almost a perfect mirror of a lot of what I feel. Thank you for this response. That does help a lot. Regardless of how, we're here nonetheless to do the best we can while we're here. That's all we have control over.

Acceptance is a hell of a drug.
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09-01-2016, 09:25 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
I win mother fucker !

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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09-01-2016, 08:17 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(08-01-2016 01:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  ... I just needed to get that off my chest because admittedly, and a bit ashamedly, this scared me. That's how fear tactics work then right?

Yes, sadly, this is how fear tactics work. Like you, I am also a theist, but my outlook and theology are completely different.

Perhaps if you consider this matter a little differently, some of the fear that you’re experiencing will be alleviated. We both believe in G-d, and so we both believe that G-d created mankind. Why then would we have these physical bodies to interact in this physical world if our primary focus was in spiritual matters? (Doesn’t G-d already have angels to fill that role?)

Additionally, G-d provided for our every physical need in order to live happy, healthy, productive lives. We live on this planet that is perfectly suited to our needs. We have food, air, energy, and our bodies can heal themselves and reproduce (it’s almost like we evolved to be perfectly adapted to this environment!). Why would G-d put us here, take such good care to address our physical needs, and then deliberately leave this gaping hole in our “spiritual needs”?

As you are a Christian, we probably both agree that the G-d gave the Torah to Moses. The Torah does provide a cliff-notes version of creation and Jewish history up until the point when the Jews enter the promised land, but the information that G-d felt was most important is about how to live your life, and not what happens to you when you die if you don’t believe in him. If you believe that G-d is perfect and infinite, then how can you also accept that G-d screwed up and forgot to mention this really important “spiritual requirement” to his chosen people? It just doesn’t make sense. He’s either perfect or he’s not perfect.

Your job as a human is to interact with your physical environment in a way that is moral and increases your pleasure without detracting from the quality of life for others. While you may certainly find pleasure and comfort in contemplating the existence of G-d, it is not your primary role as a human. If it was, this would have been made crystal clear from the get-go of human existence because all other needs have been provided for.
That's a perfectly.....unique...view of the Torah and the Bible however it bears zero resemblance to the character of God in either book which generally describes him as a jealous, petty, vain, murderous little child.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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09-01-2016, 09:13 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2016 09:29 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Some straight bull...
(09-01-2016 08:17 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(08-01-2016 01:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Yes, sadly, this is how fear tactics work. Like you, I am also a theist, but my outlook and theology are completely different.

Perhaps if you consider this matter a little differently, some of the fear that you’re experiencing will be alleviated. We both believe in G-d, and so we both believe that G-d created mankind. Why then would we have these physical bodies to interact in this physical world if our primary focus was in spiritual matters? (Doesn’t G-d already have angels to fill that role?)

Additionally, G-d provided for our every physical need in order to live happy, healthy, productive lives. We live on this planet that is perfectly suited to our needs. We have food, air, energy, and our bodies can heal themselves and reproduce (it’s almost like we evolved to be perfectly adapted to this environment!). Why would G-d put us here, take such good care to address our physical needs, and then deliberately leave this gaping hole in our “spiritual needs”?

As you are a Christian, we probably both agree that the G-d gave the Torah to Moses. The Torah does provide a cliff-notes version of creation and Jewish history up until the point when the Jews enter the promised land, but the information that G-d felt was most important is about how to live your life, and not what happens to you when you die if you don’t believe in him. If you believe that G-d is perfect and infinite, then how can you also accept that G-d screwed up and forgot to mention this really important “spiritual requirement” to his chosen people? It just doesn’t make sense. He’s either perfect or he’s not perfect.

Your job as a human is to interact with your physical environment in a way that is moral and increases your pleasure without detracting from the quality of life for others. While you may certainly find pleasure and comfort in contemplating the existence of G-d, it is not your primary role as a human. If it was, this would have been made crystal clear from the get-go of human existence because all other needs have been provided for.
That's a perfectly.....unique...view of the Torah and the Bible however it bears zero resemblance to the character of God in either book which generally describes him as a jealous, petty, vain, murderous little child.

"Either book."

You're talking about the wrong books.

It's only unique from a Christian perspective, but she's a Jew, and it's a rather commonly held view among Jews.

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09-01-2016, 10:03 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(09-01-2016 09:13 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(09-01-2016 08:17 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  That's a perfectly.....unique...view of the Torah and the Bible however it bears zero resemblance to the character of God in either book which generally describes him as a jealous, petty, vain, murderous little child.

"Either book."

You're talking about the wrong books.

It's only unique from a Christian perspective, but she's a Jew, and it's a rather commonly held view among Jews.
There are dozens of examples in the Torah of god acting just as I described him.
Quote:"Your job as a human is to interact with your physical environment in a way that is moral and increases your pleasure without detracting from the quality of life for others."
This idea is at complete odds with both the character and direct actions of God, even in the Torah. Don't get me wrong, it's a fine moral but it's in no way represented by the words or actions of God in her, or the OP's, myths.
I have no doubt that it's a commonly held view among Jews as "the story of us genociding our way through the Middle East in service to a insane god-child" doesn't have the same feel-good attitude. It's still completely inconsistent with the content of the book.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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