Some straight bull...
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10-01-2016, 10:13 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
unfogged,

The defence of my claims lies in the fact that they cannot be discredited based on any scientific theory. Science works just fine within my claims. My claims, don't go against any knowledge of any kind. But that in itself isn't evidence per say. People say that God isn't needed to understand existence. But many scientific theories have holes or grand assumptions and only work seperately to describe things, and not as a cohesive harmonious whole, which it is.

My arguments are valid but notably difficult to comprehend at times.

I have proof and physical reminder of the miraculous thing that I witnessed. Dated and all. Proof for me, that's for sure.

The evidence is all around. I know some keep up with religious sites. The whole perspective on existence and our place in it is changing on a societal level. Guess that isn't evidence of anything though.

Thank you for again pointing out the very obvious; science can only KNOW of things that are readily observable to the extent that they can be observed. It doesn't answer anything. Just makes more questions of greater implications.


How can you say my claims cannot be compaired to other claims? Make a claim. We will see very quickly if it refutes what I claim.


Again and again.
Can we agree that perception is subjective? Can we? Are you sure?

Okay; if our very perception of reality is subjective then ones own experiences hold the most ground by default. My evidence does not suffice as your evidence.


The lack of sincerity, or huaghtiness is disingenuous in itself. Regardless of your false pretense of genuine worry or sympathy, your demeanor shines through as usual.

Disingenuous

Peace
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10-01-2016, 10:35 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(10-01-2016 10:13 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  unfogged,

The defence of my claims lies in the fact that they cannot be discredited based on any scientific theory.

Do you realize that you just stated that your claims are un-falsifiable?

This is why everything you say can be dismissed.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-01-2016, 11:01 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(10-01-2016 10:13 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  unfogged,

The defence of my claims lies in the fact that they cannot be discredited based on any scientific theory.

Sorry pops, that's not how it works. Claims can only be defended by providing evidence FOR them, not noting the lack of evidence against them.

Quote:Science works just fine within my claims.

Sort of. Science ignores your claims because there is nothing of substance there.

Quote:My claims, don't go against any knowledge of any kind.

Nor do they contain any.

Quote: But that in itself isn't evidence per say.

First thing you got right in a long time.

Quote:People say that God isn't needed to understand existence. But many scientific theories have holes or grand assumptions and only work seperately to describe things, and not as a cohesive harmonious whole, which it is.

People say all kinds of things, but you are attacking a strawman again. It isn't that "god isn't needed", it is that there is no evidence for a god. As for not having a complete explanation of everything, making up a god doesn't actually answer anything. That's called "god of the gaps" or "argument from ignorance".

Quote:My arguments are valid but notably difficult to comprehend at times.

Close... your arguments are vapid and notably incomprehensible at times, not because they are complicated but because they are incoherent.

Quote:I have proof and physical reminder of the miraculous thing that I witnessed. Dated and all. Proof for me, that's for sure.

"Proof for me" is not proof. Evidence must be demonstrable. You have none.

Quote:The evidence is all around. I know some keep up with religious sites. The whole perspective on existence and our place in it is changing on a societal level. Guess that isn't evidence of anything though.

It certainly is not evidence of any god.

Quote:Thank you for again pointing out the very obvious; science can only KNOW of things that are readily observable to the extent that they can be observed. It doesn't answer anything. Just makes more questions of greater implications.

I'm sorry that you do not understand what science is and what it does. I've tried to explain it, as have others.

Quote:How can you say my claims cannot be compaired to other claims? Make a claim. We will see very quickly if it refutes what I claim.

You still do not understand. You have the burden of proof to support your claim. That requires evidence. What you are doing is an attempt to shift the burden of proof. It is the tactic of somebody that has nothing of value.

Quote:Again and again.
Can we agree that perception is subjective? Can we? Are you sure?

I can agree that there is a subjective component to perception.

Quote:Okay; if our very perception of reality is subjective then ones own experiences hold the most ground by default. My evidence does not suffice as your evidence.

No, ones own experiences should not hold the most ground precisely because they can be colored by subjective biases. That's why we compare our perceptions to those of others to determine what is most likely to be true.

Quote:The lack of sincerity, or huaghtiness is disingenuous in itself. Regardless of your false pretense of genuine worry or sympathy, your demeanor shines through as usual.

You frequently make claims about the motives of others. You are a never-ending source of amusement. Whether you think I mean it or not, you really do need help pops. Get some.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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10-01-2016, 11:20 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(07-01-2016 12:15 AM)Noric Wrote:  Preface: I'm not really trying to impress anybody by being that one theist who criticizes religion, so if anything comes off as insincere, I apologize. This is precisely why I decided to join this forum, out of all the places I could have gone, I decided to settle here. I feel safer here than in a lot of places I've been on the Internet.

See this is exactly why I have pretty prominent problems with some interpretations of faith (mainly Christian, but it's relative I'm sure). I go off and search up random things for the sake of knowing what people think and accept about their faith, lack thereof, or ongoing "journey" as it were. Let's just assume there are some objective "good" things people can be and do, devoid of all the philosophy and relativism, you're just a straight up decent human being. You just happen to not believe in a deity. I've always been of the belief, regardless of how I view religion, that good people who do good things deserve good things in return. Karma right? That said, I was HIGHLY put off by the following...

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Objec/G5-003.htm

Quote:So-called good non-believers are going to be cast into hell by the boat loads and I, for one, hope I am in such a state that it seems less sickening than it does now. There will be more former murderers in heaven who GENUINELY repented in their last minutes than there will be lifelong do-gooders who were never committed to obeying or believing the Lord; never concerned with dealing with their sin (Matthew 7:17-23). The fate of hell is tragic and it's tragic for at least that reason.

To say I was only put off is being infinitely nicer and calmer than my ignition reaction. That's like a guy proposing to a lady, giving her all the accolades and love in the world, then at some point in the engagement he finds out that she doesn't like vanilla ice cream, so he calls off the wedding. Like, nobody cares about a pamphlet blog for feelgooders sprinkled around the Internet, but my God (heh heh) this is disgusting. This goes so flagrantly against basic moral concepts it's insane. I'll admit I was a little depressed after reading it, because what if one day I decide to just let go of what little strength in my belief I have left, but still strive to be the best person I can be, that's suddenly all null and void? But in that process, if somebody kills my brother, God forbid, his muderer gets in if he says a rosary before I kill hi--- I mean the state gives him a lethal injection? And it succeeded in making me slightly saddened because I like new things. I like looking for new knowledge I didn't have the day before, and if someday that happens to lead me away from any faith whatsoever... Seems like I'm shit out of luck.

I just needed to get that off my chest because admittedly, and a bit ashamedly, this scared me. That's how fear tactics work then right?

Glad you found us. Yes, the engine of religion is fear, and fear is good business it seems. It also requires faith, which is the belief in something without evidence. if it had evidence, it wouldn't require faith, as it would simply be fact. That isnt the case, so the kool aid consumption requires fear and faith. I choose reason and logic as my basis for interpreting the world around me, as well as empirical evidence. If you have any questions regarding the anthropocentric faith of christianity, let me know.

You have started your epistemological journey to truth already, whether you realize it or not, you have a questioning and skeptical mind...let it lead you where it may. Knowledge is power, and the reason I was able to be cured of the infection of faith years ago. The cure is available to all, it just requires a questioning mind seeking knowledge.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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10-01-2016, 11:26 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(10-01-2016 07:16 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-01-2016 01:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Do you have evidence?

Then you don't know it, you retarded jackass. Drinking Beverage
I have had and do have evidence as each and every one shall have upon actual inquisition.


More of those pesky materialists again I see.

Know that the material is the trapping we confide ourselves in, and in no way is the limit of existence, however it does limit the capacities of many.

He who believes hard enough, and seeks something long enough, finds it, whether it is real or not.

All comes down to subjective perspective now doesn't it pops?

You and I are sitting together on a bus to orlando, the driver falls asleep and flips the bus, killing everyone onboard but you and I. I think I was just lucky that I sat in the last row which was not crushed. You think god saved you. See the difference in perspective? The question you should be thinking is, if there was a god, why did he let everyone else die, but saved you and I? it is like when recently in the news a tornado wiped out a large section of a small town, and one of the witnesses said, we were praying hard, and the tornado moved over and took out the neighbors instead....mhmm....so god chose to kill them and not you? Does that thinking really make any fucking sense? No.

Perspective.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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10-01-2016, 11:37 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
goodwithoutgod,

Fear, nor business have anything to do with the relationship between man and Creator.

Any anthropocentric stance is not a stance of any one rightly guided. It is a stance of greed.

An epistemological journey would not equate to the conclusion that there isn't a creative force. It's a fine starting point though.

Peace
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10-01-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
[Image: tumblr_m5jlvydicP1rula7qo5_250.gif]

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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10-01-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Some straight bull...
(10-01-2016 11:46 AM)Anjele Wrote:  [Image: tumblr_m5jlvydicP1rula7qo5_250.gif]

Literally every pops post ever...

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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10-01-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(10-01-2016 07:08 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  You can attempt to limit "knowledge" to scientific endeavors or theories.

I didn't write the definition of "knowledge" I just use it properly you stuncunt. Knowledge is demonstrable, it requires facts and evidence. You don't have any, thus your claims are not demonstrable, thus they are not knowledge.

Not according to me, according to the English fucking Language.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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10-01-2016, 04:11 PM
RE: Some straight bull...
(10-01-2016 11:37 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  goodwithoutgod,

Fear, nor business have anything to do with the relationship between man and Creator.

Any anthropocentric stance is not a stance of any one rightly guided. It is a stance of greed.

An epistemological journey would not equate to the conclusion that there isn't a creative force. It's a fine starting point though.

Peace
Consider

mhmmm

Actually all religions use some type of fear to sell their BS. Except for perhaps Buddhism, I frankly know zero about that religion as I have never researched it.

You do understand the definition of anthropocentric right?

"regarding humankind as the central or most important element of existence, especially as opposed to God or animals."

Are you saying mankind is not the central focus of this mythical god of yours? if not, then why even entertain the game?

Define "rightly guided"...that smacks of the 'no true scotsman' argument...

Faith IS the delusion, belief without evidence. Faith is pretending to know things that you dont know. To say "I have faith in god" really means "I pretend to know things I don't know about god"....THINK about it, you dont know, you HOPE. Faith is an epistemology. It's a method and process people use to understand reality. Faith-based claims are knowledge claims. For example, "I have faith that jesus christ will heal my sickness because it says so in Luke" is a knowledge claim. The utterer of this statement is asserting jesus will heal her. Those who make faith claims are professing to know something about the external world. For example, when someone says "jesus walked on water" (matthew 14:22-33), that person is claiming TO KNOW there was an historical figure names jesus and that he, unaided by technology, literally walked across the surface of the water. This is a knowledge claim...an objective statement of fact.

Your religious beliefs typically depend on the community in which you were raised or lived. The spiritual experiences of people in ancient greece, medieval japan or 21st century saudia arabia do not lead to belief in christianity. It seems, therefore, that religious belief very likely tracks not truth but social conditioning.

Faith is a failed epistemology. Showing why faith fails has been done before and done well. (Bering 2011, Harris 2004, Loftus 2010, 2013, McCormick 2012, Schick & Vaughn 2008, Shermer 1997, 2011, Smith 1979, STenger & Barker 2012, Torres 2012, Wade 2009 etc)

If a belief is based on insufficient evidence, than any further conclusion drawn from the belief will at best be of questionable value. This can not point one to the path of truth. Here are five points believers/non believers should be able to agree upon.

1) There are different faith traditions.

2) Different faith traditions make different truth claims.

3) The truth claims of some faith traditions contradict the truth claims of other faith traditions. For example, Muslims believe muhammad (570-632) was the last prophet (Sura 33:40). Mormons believe Joseph Smith (1805-1844), who lived after muhammad was a prophet.

4) It cannot both be the case that muhammad was the last prophet, and someone who lived after him was also a prophet.

5) Therefore: At LEAST one of these claims must be false....perhaps both....

It is impossible to figure out which of these claims is incorrect if the tool one uses is faith. As a tool, as an epistemology, as a method of reasoning, as a process for knowing the world, faith cannot adjudicate between competing claims. The ONLY way to figure out which claims about the world are likely true, and which are likely false, is through reason and evidence. There is no other way....yet.

As usual, you have wandered into the deep end of the pool Pops, careful....don't drown Flex

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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