Some thoughts on time and space
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10-07-2015, 05:29 PM
Some thoughts on time and space
We know that time and space are two views of the same thing, space-time. But this is a concept tethered to our human view of the Universe. Space-time is a way of describing the relative relationships of objects or systems in a way that fits in with our understanding of our observations of the Universe. It is easy to grasp how the concept of ‘space’ emerges from how we describe relationships between objects or systems in three-dimensions. This seems so obviously true to us that we seem to have lost sight of the fact that ‘space’ is an emergent property of objects (or systems – which for the sake of brevity I’m going to stop saying) observed in three-dimensions.

This leaves us with a tantalising thought. If ‘space’ is an emergent property of objects observed in three dimensions and ‘space’ and ‘time‘ are one and the same thing - i.e. space-time observed from different points of view - then it stands to reason that ‘time’ is also an emergent property of objects in three-dimensions and not a Universal constant. Space, and therefore time, are simply ways of describing relationships between objects in three-dimensions, but has the Universe always existed in three-dimensions?

“In recent years, physicists such as Jonas Mureika, associate professor at Loyola Marymount University and his co-author, Dejan Stojkovic of SUNY Buffalo, N.Y., have increasingly come to believe that in the moments after the Big Bang, the universe existed in fewer than three dimensions of space. These advocates of the “vanishing-dimension theory” argue that as the universe matured, bursts of energy added a second dimension, then a third, creating the physical world that we are familiar with today.”


Vanishing Dimensions Theory

The question that remains is can space and time emerge from a two or one-dimensional Universe? One thing is certain, if they do then they will be very different from the properties we observe in our three-dimensional Universe.

But we are not thinking laterally enough, what if the Universe is not slowing down at a uniform rate? ‘But it is!’ I hear cosmologists cry as they point me in the direction of Hubble’s Law, I am inclined to agree for the objects we observe in our three-dimensional Universe, but we wouldn’t experience two or one-dimensional objects in the same way, so they would be ruled out of Hubble’s Law.

If we could observe two-dimensional objects they would appear to be independent of space and time as we observe it. Imagine a 2-D point on an invisible scrap of paper, floating in mid-air in front of you but with no depth. Our observation of it would be somewhat confusing, with an absence of space-time it would seem to violate the laws of time (and therefore causality) but as it moved and interacted with other 2-D objects in its own 2-D space we would not be able to observe those interactions just the effect they would have in our 3-D universe, and if we tried to observe the object itself it would seem to collapse into a single point… wait a minute… this sounds familiar.

Before we get ahead of ourselves let’s just check this. In fact wouldn’t a 2-D objects seem to us in our 3-D Universe to be two points - either end of its 2-dimensions. One could imagine if each point we observed had a corresponding ‘other’ point also projected into our 3-D Universe. We could check that because any change we make to one point would instantly change the other point in what would seem to be no time at all (because time does not exist in a 2-D Universe), and if they appeared to us to be vast distances apart in our 3-D Universe one might think it would look to be reacting faster than the speed of light at a distance…

Spooky, eh!

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

Salman Rushdie talks to Terry Gilliam
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10-07-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(10-07-2015 05:29 PM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  We know that time and space are two views of the same thing, space-time.

That doesn't ring true. Consider They are views of different aspects of the same thing.

Quote:But this is a concept tethered to our human view of the Universe. Space-time is a way of describing the relative relationships of objects or systems in a way that fits in with our understanding of our observations of the Universe. It is easy to grasp how the concept of ‘space’ emerges from how we describe relationships between objects or systems in three-dimensions. This seems so obviously true to us that we seem to have lost sight of the fact that ‘space’ is an emergent property of objects (or systems – which for the sake of brevity I’m going to stop saying) observed in three-dimensions.

You are going to have to do more than just assert that ‘space’ is an emergent property of objects.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-07-2015, 05:56 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(10-07-2015 05:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are going to have to do more than just assert that ‘space’ is an emergent property of objects.

I'm way out of my league here, but I'm interested. Would it make more sense to say that "space is an emergent property of 'objects' as observed in 3D"?

I suppose we need to define "space"? Maybe also "objects"? Consider

I'm not sure if that even made sense to me

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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10-07-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(10-07-2015 05:56 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 05:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are going to have to do more than just assert that ‘space’ is an emergent property of objects.

I'm way out of my league here, but I'm interested. Would it make more sense to say that "space is an emergent property of 'objects' as observed in 3D"?

I suppose we need to define "space"? Maybe also "objects"? Consider

I'm not sure if that even made sense to me

It wouldn't make more sense to me. 'Space' is an 'attribute' rather than an emergent property.

From Wiki:
Quote:An emergent property of a system ... is one that is not a property of any component of that system, but is still a feature of the system as a whole.

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10-07-2015, 07:08 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
Space is just the nothing between stuff.....

Time is just the nothing between the events...

This post is just more typing between the jokes....

Try to figure out which one is right.................


Smile

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10-07-2015, 07:16 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(10-07-2015 07:08 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Try to figure out which one is right.................
Smile

There is no 'right'.

It's all relative.

Big Grin

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10-07-2015, 07:22 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(10-07-2015 07:08 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Space is just the nothing between stuff.....
Smile

Such as that between my ears?

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10-07-2015, 08:29 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(10-07-2015 07:08 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Space is just the nothing between stuff.....

Time is just the nothing between the events...

This post is just more typing between the jokes....

Try to figure out which one is right.................


Smile

Is it D) All of the above. ? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-07-2015, 08:32 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
I need some time, so gimme some space.
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10-07-2015, 09:03 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(10-07-2015 06:16 PM)DLJ Wrote:  It wouldn't make more sense to me. 'Space' is an 'attribute' rather than an emergent property.

From Wiki:
Quote:An emergent property of a system ... is one that is not a property of any component of that system, but is still a feature of the system as a whole.

Yup. Now I'm lost. That didn't take long.... Dodgy

What would the significant difference between "emergent property" and "attribute" be?

I can kind of grasp a difference, but it's like a fog when I think about it...I can't quite nail it down, at least in this context.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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