Some thoughts on time and space
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11-07-2015, 05:56 AM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(10-07-2015 05:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 05:29 PM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  We know that time and space are two views of the same thing, space-time.

That doesn't ring true. Consider They are views of different aspects of the same thing.

Quote:But this is a concept tethered to our human view of the Universe. Space-time is a way of describing the relative relationships of objects or systems in a way that fits in with our understanding of our observations of the Universe. It is easy to grasp how the concept of ‘space’ emerges from how we describe relationships between objects or systems in three-dimensions. This seems so obviously true to us that we seem to have lost sight of the fact that ‘space’ is an emergent property of objects (or systems – which for the sake of brevity I’m going to stop saying) observed in three-dimensions.

You are going to have to do more than just assert that ‘space’ is an emergent property of objects.

Please bear in mind these are just thoughts, I'm not presenting a paper.

What I am trying to say, unsuccessfully it seems, is that space and time are not fundamental things but artefacts of our viewpoint. The only thing that changes our viewpoint is the speed we are moving.

On your second point, I am saying more than 'space' and 'time' are emergent properties of objects, I'm saying space-time (and therefore our viewpoints of space and time) is an emergent property of how we describe objects in a three-dimensional universe. The fact that we are describing relationships between objects in three-dimensional space is fundamental to the point I was thinking about.

Archi

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

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11-07-2015, 10:13 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(10-07-2015 09:03 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 06:16 PM)DLJ Wrote:  It wouldn't make more sense to me. 'Space' is an 'attribute' rather than an emergent property.

From Wiki:

Yup. Now I'm lost. That didn't take long.... Dodgy

What would the significant difference between "emergent property" and "attribute" be?

I can kind of grasp a difference, but it's like a fog when I think about it...I can't quite nail it down, at least in this context.

An attribute (or, indeed, a property) is a descriptor of a system or component part(s) of a system whereas an emergent property is a descriptor of a system but NOT its component parts.

e.g. no single molecule of evenheathen has the attribute (or property) known as 'life', whereas evenheathen as a whole (system) is alive. Praise be!

(11-07-2015 05:56 AM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  ...
I am saying more than 'space' and 'time' are emergent properties of objects, I'm saying space-time (and therefore our viewpoints of space and time) is an emergent property of how we describe objects in a three-dimensional universe. The fact that we are describing relationships between objects in three-dimensional space is fundamental to the point I was thinking about.
...

See above. Not emergent... just an attribute or a descriptor of a model.

Wink

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11-07-2015, 10:46 PM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
I am a pragmatist.

Time is a measurement of how long an action takes. No action =/= no time. If everything around you is frozen, except for you, you can measure something because you are still in action. If you were frozen along with everything else, time has essentially stopped.

At least that's how I've always seen it. Feel free to tear that view down, I love learning :-)

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12-07-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(11-07-2015 10:13 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 09:03 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Yup. Now I'm lost. That didn't take long.... Dodgy

What would the significant difference between "emergent property" and "attribute" be?

I can kind of grasp a difference, but it's like a fog when I think about it...I can't quite nail it down, at least in this context.

An attribute (or, indeed, a property) is a descriptor of a system or component part(s) of a system whereas an emergent property is a descriptor of a system but NOT its component parts.

e.g. no single molecule of evenheathen has the attribute (or property) known as 'life', whereas evenheathen as a whole (system) is alive. Praise be!

(11-07-2015 05:56 AM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  ...
I am saying more than 'space' and 'time' are emergent properties of objects, I'm saying space-time (and therefore our viewpoints of space and time) is an emergent property of how we describe objects in a three-dimensional universe. The fact that we are describing relationships between objects in three-dimensional space is fundamental to the point I was thinking about.
...

See above. Not emergent... just an attribute or a descriptor of a model.

Wink

That helps. Thanks duder! Thumbsup

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13-07-2015, 08:33 AM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(11-07-2015 10:13 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(10-07-2015 09:03 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Yup. Now I'm lost. That didn't take long.... Dodgy

What would the significant difference between "emergent property" and "attribute" be?

I can kind of grasp a difference, but it's like a fog when I think about it...I can't quite nail it down, at least in this context.

An attribute (or, indeed, a property) is a descriptor of a system or component part(s) of a system whereas an emergent property is a descriptor of a system but NOT its component parts.

e.g. no single molecule of evenheathen has the attribute (or property) known as 'life', whereas evenheathen as a whole (system) is alive. Praise be!

(11-07-2015 05:56 AM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  ...
I am saying more than 'space' and 'time' are emergent properties of objects, I'm saying space-time (and therefore our viewpoints of space and time) is an emergent property of how we describe objects in a three-dimensional universe. The fact that we are describing relationships between objects in three-dimensional space is fundamental to the point I was thinking about.
...

See above. Not emergent... just an attribute or a descriptor of a model.

Wink

I am actually saying space and time are not component parts but descriptors we use to describe relationships in three dimensional space.

Archi.

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

Salman Rushdie talks to Terry Gilliam
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13-07-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(11-07-2015 10:46 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I am a pragmatist.

Time is a measurement of how long an action takes. No action =/= no time. If everything around you is frozen, except for you, you can measure something because you are still in action. If you were frozen along with everything else, time has essentially stopped.

At least that's how I've always seen it. Feel free to tear that view down, I love learning :-)

Yes, I'd broadly agree with that.

Archi

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

Salman Rushdie talks to Terry Gilliam
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13-07-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: Some thoughts on time and space
(13-07-2015 08:33 AM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  
(11-07-2015 10:13 PM)DLJ Wrote:  An attribute (or, indeed, a property) is a descriptor of a system or component part(s) of a system whereas an emergent property is a descriptor of a system but NOT its component parts.

e.g. no single molecule of evenheathen has the attribute (or property) known as 'life', whereas evenheathen as a whole (system) is alive. Praise be!


See above. Not emergent... just an attribute or a descriptor of a model.

Wink

I am actually saying space and time are not component parts but descriptors we use to describe relationships in three dimensional space.

Archi.

Then we agree. Just ... not 'emergent' properties. Wink

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