Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
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06-05-2013, 10:55 AM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
Quote:The link in post #16 is a perfect example of "earlier vaguely similar references" being "prophetic of Jesus as the messiah". Something similar happened to someone in a previous story [that probably never even happened, but was but fiction of that time], . . . that sounded like something that happened later. Voila! "Prophecy"!!! If that's what you see as "evidence", . . . that's up to you, . . . but it is obviously uncompelling to those who actually SEE what's going on.
Sure, if you say so. Of course, I can get very little play on Daniel predicting the exact day of the crucifixion or the HB the exact day of secular Israel's restoration in 1948...
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06-05-2013, 10:59 AM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(06-05-2013 10:54 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Stuff like this is one reason I'm now considering vacating this forum permanently. No freethinkers are reading the scriptures in any kind of context.

One can only hope.
You will not be missed.
No one has gained a thing by your pedantic church-lady ranting.

You can make up any "prophecy" shit you like to make it appear the fortune-teller is accurate, and reinterpret it later to make it fit any situation you like.
Jebus said THIS GENERATION, (would not pass away). That had ONLY ONE meaning. Why did he lie ? He did not get the job done. Find yourself a messiah that can do the job, SPJTJ.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
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06-05-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(05-05-2013 09:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I disagree.
There are two reasons why prophets should not be quoted :
1. Jebus cannot be claimed as a "messiah", as he did not get THE main job a messiah was to have accomplished. He did not claim the title. He did not restore the kingdom of Israel.
Claiming the title of Messiah is far from the Messiahs job description. Moreover he did say he was Messiah if scripture is to be believed. He also is presently restoring Israel particular to the concept that the promise to Abraham is the New Covenant.

Quote: The Kingdom of Israel has STILL not been "restored". There were a number of "messiahs" running around in his day, and if Simon bar Kochba could be seen as a much better one, a few years later, it's a good reason to think Jebus was not seen as one. The Romans STILL occupied the country, before, during, and after his life.
Israel are a certain people of faith seen all over the world made up of many nationalities. It is irrelevant who occupies the land of Israel. You do not consider that the concept of restoration you speak of is not what is meant by scripture, nor have all things yet come to pass.
Quote:2. The most important reason is the the role of a prophet in ancient Hebrew culture was not to predict the future. They were advsors. The word "prophet" means "mouthpiece". They speak TO THE PEOPLE of their own day, in the place of their god, (Yahweh). The entire business of "prediction of the future" is "Presentism",
A mouthpiece to be sure. But to say that mouthpiece was not meant to speak to future events is arbitrary.

Quote:Around the 1st Century CE. it became popular in apocalyptic circles and literature, in the of the study of Midrash, to begin to find secret hidden meanings. That was the beginning of the "fortune-telling" use of the prophetic scrolls. Divination and fortune telling was forbidden. The gospel writers bought into that, to some extent, as it was useful, but the true meaning of "prophet" was NOT to foretell the future, even though it has in modern times, come to mean that. That's NOT what it meant in Jebus' day.

None of this matters since divination is not what a prophet would be doing when speaking about what was to come. I agree people would seek hidden secret knowledge. Indeed all who contemplate scripture are doing that since Jesus spoke in parables. This is not divination. It simply is trying to comprehend the meanings behind the parables.
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06-05-2013, 12:19 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(06-05-2013 10:55 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:The link in post #16 is a perfect example of "earlier vaguely similar references" being "prophetic of Jesus as the messiah". Something similar happened to someone in a previous story [that probably never even happened, but was but fiction of that time], . . . that sounded like something that happened later. Voila! "Prophecy"!!! If that's what you see as "evidence", . . . that's up to you, . . . but it is obviously uncompelling to those who actually SEE what's going on.
Sure, if you say so. Of course, I can get very little play on Daniel predicting the exact day of the crucifixion or the HB the exact day of secular Israel's restoration in 1948...

Huh? Undecided
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06-05-2013, 12:23 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(04-05-2013 08:47 PM)TheLastEnemy Wrote:  Old Testament Prophecies fulfilled by Jesus.

That doesn't count, because the authors of the Gospels could have just twisted Jesus' life to conform to the prophecies.

Say I had a friend who wrote a book, it's a fantasy series, and it centers around several important prophecies. He dies, unable to finish what was meant to be a series, so I finish it for him. In the new book, I have several prophecies from the previous book fulfilled.

Are you going to say; "That guy is fucking magic!"?, of course not.
Are you serious? And could you please describe what the Old Testament prophecies concerning the New Covenant were?
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06-05-2013, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 12:32 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(06-05-2013 12:14 PM)childeye Wrote:  A mouthpiece to be sure. But to say that mouthpiece was not meant to speak to future events is arbitrary.

Not because you say so. Soothsaying and divination were forbidden in Leviticus. You need to read your Bible.

(06-05-2013 12:14 PM)childeye Wrote:  None of this matters since divination is not what a prophet would be doing when speaking about what was to come. I agree people would seek hidden secret knowledge. Indeed all who contemplate scripture are doing that since Jesus spoke in parables. This is not divination. It simply is trying to comprehend the meanings behind the parables.

Yes it does. Telling/predicting future events is divination, and soothsaying. You saying it is not, does not make it so. Discovering meanings in parables is irrelevant for "fulfillment of prophecy" Stick to the subject at hand. Stop trying to deflect the argument. We are not talking about parables. All the messiahs spoke in parables. They were ubiquitous. Nice try. Fail. A prophet was not a teller of future events. THAT IS THE POINT. The accuracy of prediction is thus irrelevant. Most fundie Christians use it, and do so incorrectly. A prophet gave advice. "Do this, (such as "do your homework, or you will flunk"). Advice is not fortune telling, or a prediction which thereby proves inspiration. THAT is the way you fundie Christians use it. It's false, by definition. Try harder, Childish.

Israel is a secular democracy, in which most of the population no longer believes in anything. you call THAT "restoration'. Bullshit.
The messiah was supposed to restore the political KINGDOM of Israel. In the Near East. You can't change the meaning now.
Even the apostles said to him in Acts 1, "Wilt thou at this time restore the KINGDOM". THAT is what was meant. THAT is how it was understood. You can now change anything to mean anything. But it proves that what you are about is BS.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
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06-05-2013, 12:28 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
Quote:Jebus said THIS GENERATION, (would not pass away). That had ONLY ONE meaning. Why did he lie ? He did not get the job done. Find yourself a messiah that can do the job, SPJTJ

And now, here's an example of not only ducking, but failure to remember the response/reproof.

From the Strong'sm, which lists seven possible meanings of "genea" or "generation":

1) fathered, birth, nativity

2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time

4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
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06-05-2013, 12:30 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
Quote:Huh?
There is a canard on this forum about vague prophecies.

The Bible predicted the exact date of Jesus's crucifixion and the exact date in 1948 CE of Israel's birth (again) as a nation.
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06-05-2013, 12:32 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(06-05-2013 12:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There is a canard on this forum about vague prophecies.

The Bible predicted the exact date of Jesus's crucifixion and the exact date in 1948 CE of Israel's birth (again) as a nation.

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E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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06-05-2013, 12:35 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 12:59 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(06-05-2013 12:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Huh?
There is a canard on this forum about vague prophecies.

The Bible predicted the exact date of Jesus's crucifixion and the exact date in 1948 CE of Israel's birth (again) as a nation.

Soothsaying and divination were forbidden. It's irrelevant AND you forgot to say where.
You are a joke SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke.
And IF "the exact date" was predicted for the crucifixion, why, SPJTJ are they DIFFERENT in the synoptics and John. Which one was it ? Liar.
In 3 of the gospels it was one day. In 1 the next. Which day was it. John changed it to make it *appear* he was the *lamb*.
Take a class, you two. Why do atheists know more about your stupid books than you do ?
I could care less how Strong tries to rationalize it. If he was a god, he could have spoken plainly.
He cannot be said to be the messiah if he didn't get his job done, and still has not.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
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