Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
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06-05-2013, 09:50 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 11:05 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(06-05-2013 07:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I've seen a listing of over 300 prophecies of Jesus's first advent fulfilled. You can start here:

http://www.christsavesministries.org/ind...sf=vw&id=5

None of them refer to Yeshua ben Josef, Mr. Fortune Teller, (aka Madame Zelda).
He was not the messiah. He didn't get the one job done he was supposed to get done. So sad. Too bad. Find another candidate, and learn something about the role of a prophet,
Mr. One Track Mind. No one here cares. It's hilarious you link to "eusebius". He was a self admitted liar. I would think you'd not want to bring up that embarrassing fellow.
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06-05-2013, 11:02 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(04-05-2013 08:47 PM)TheLastEnemy Wrote:  Old Testament Prophecies fulfilled by Jesus.

That doesn't count, because the authors of the Gospels could have just twisted Jesus' life to conform to the prophecies.

Say I had a friend who wrote a book, it's a fantasy series, and it centers around several important prophecies. He dies, unable to finish what was meant to be a series, so I finish it for him. In the new book, I have several prophecies from the previous book fulfilled.

Are you going to say; "That guy is fucking magic!"?, of course not.

They do it anyway, as if it counted. My mother tried this tactic on me the last time I talked to her. They don't realize all they really have in the NT is just bad fan fiction.

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07-05-2013, 06:44 AM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
Quote:Did you miss the point of this thread, made elegantly in the first post? These prophecies are such fine examples of writing the story of Jesus in such a way that it "fulfills" earlier prophecy.

To take one example from that list, "He shall be called Immanuel". He wasn't. Yes, there is a verse in which the angel tells Joseph that Jesus shall be called Emmanuel, but have you noticed that Jesus never gets called Emmanuel? He was named Jesus, and at literally every point after that he was called something other than Emmanuel. That particular NT verse sounds like the author realized that Jesus had to be called Emmanuel to fulfill prophecy and, realizing that this hadn't actually come true, stuck in a verse that attempted to make it true.

As the atheist author Christopher Hitchens said, "If it seems strange that Jesus should do particular things simply to fulfill prophecy, that's because it is strange." When the New Testament says things like "...this was done in order to fulfill the prophecy" said in such and such a place in the Old Testament, that sounds to a skeptic like it was added to the story of Jesus exactly for that purpose.
Here's something that is illogical, that all of you freethinkers share in common.

You don't want to allow for context/Hebrew word play [Immanuel = God is with us/Logos is in flesh] and etc. so you say the prophecies were not fulfilled accurately AND you say the NT was written as a falsification to fulfill prophecies!

Which is it?
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07-05-2013, 06:46 AM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
Quote:None of them refer to Yeshua ben Josef, Mr. Fortune Teller, (aka Madame Zelda).
He was not the messiah. He didn't get the one job done he was supposed to get done. So sad. Too bad. Find another candidate, and learn something about the role of a prophet,
Mr. One Track Mind. No one here cares. It's hilarious you link to "eusebius". He was a self admitted liar. I would think you'd not want to bring up that embarrassing fellow.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rly-church
You have forgotten that I can read the Hebrew scriptures for myself and am therefore familiar with the two advents of Messiah and the many things that must occur before Messiah's return.

Your argument is identical to that of Jewish people who are non-Messianic. They love to quote, for example, Isaiah 2 (swords to plowshares) but not Joel 2 (plowshares to become swords, first).

Your vehemence about what good, gentle Christians believe is astonishing. Are you Jewish?
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07-05-2013, 07:42 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2013 09:14 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(07-05-2013 06:46 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:None of them refer to Yeshua ben Josef, Mr. Fortune Teller, (aka Madame Zelda).
He was not the messiah. He didn't get the one job done he was supposed to get done. So sad. Too bad. Find another candidate, and learn something about the role of a prophet,
Mr. One Track Mind. No one here cares. It's hilarious you link to "eusebius". He was a self admitted liar. I would think you'd not want to bring up that embarrassing fellow.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rly-church
You have forgotten that I can read the Hebrew scriptures for myself and am therefore familiar with the two advents of Messiah and the many things that must occur before Messiah's return.

Your argument is identical to that of Jewish people who are non-Messianic. They love to quote, for example, Isaiah 2 (swords to plowshares) but not Joel 2 (plowshares to become swords, first).

Your vehemence about what good, gentle Christians believe is astonishing. Are you Jewish?

No, I am not. Are you ? Nice try at deflection. You did not address the point at hand , as usual. Your Jebus did not accomplish the one task of a messiah, thus NONE of your falsely attributed "scriptures" can be said to apply to him, even if I were to agree prophesy is fortune telling, which I do not, (and which I see you have an entire career, mistakenly built on, and invested in ... built on shifting sands). What an idiot. My argument is not "identical". I don't buy into Yahweh, (the war god / god or the armies). Your "two advents" is irrelevant. Only a small number of Jews await a messiah. I await none. Your Jebus accomplished nothing. In the long sweep of history, nothing has changed after his, (one among many) term of mistaken apocalyptic preaching , and supposed miracle doing. Just like all the others, he was mistaken.

Your attempt to single out Christian as somehow unique as "gentle and good" is disingenuous. Some may be. Many are not. 95 % of US prisons are full of your "good gentle Christians". Morality does not come from the gods. Nice try again. Fail. Your failed attempt to appropriate the moral high-ground is very obvious. The usual churchy clap-trap of believers who need to see themselves as morally superior. You don't know me. I am not "vehement" about anything. Just quiet and stubborn about such utter foolishness as you spout.
In short, you get an "F" for the days trolling. Try harder tomorrow, Pleasy.

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07-05-2013, 08:26 AM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(06-05-2013 03:00 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 02:53 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That makes no sense. You can't command someone to love you. That is not what love is.
Yes I completely agree. That is the whole point of the New Testament.
The New Testament is saying that Love is the goodness in mankind and it cannot be brought about by commandments.

"Love is the goodness in mankind"? Not only does that completely ignore the fact that love is an emotion, it negates the fact that it is a result of chemical processes in the brain. And that love is apparently not restricted to humans.

Your god is sounding more and more like a fascist dictator who changes definitions of commonly used words so as to generate more support for himself, even if it defies all logic and reason.

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07-05-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(07-05-2013 07:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-05-2013 06:46 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You have forgotten that I can read the Hebrew scriptures for myself and am therefore familiar with the two advents of Messiah and the many things that must occur before Messiah's return.

Your argument is identical to that of Jewish people who are non-Messianic. They love to quote, for example, Isaiah 2 (swords to plowshares) but not Joel 2 (plowshares to become swords, first).

Your vehemence about what good, gentle Christians believe is astonishing. Are you Jewish?


No, I am not. Are you ? Nice try at deflection. You did not address the point at hand , as usual. Your Jebus did not accomplish the one task of a messiah, thus NONE of your falsely attributed "scriptures" can be said to apply to him, even if I were to agree prophesy is fortune telling, which I do not, (and which I see you have an entire career, mistakenly built on, and invested in ... built on shifting sands). What an idiot. My argument is not "identical". I don't buy into Yahweh, (the war god / god or the armies). Your "two advents" is irrelevant. Only a small number of Jews await a messiah. I await none. Your Jebus accomplished nothing. In the long sweep of history, nothing has changed after his, (one among many) term of mistaken apocalyptic preaching , and supposed miracle doing. Just like all the others, he was mistaken.

Your attempt to single out Christian as somehow unique as "gentle and good" is disingenuous. Some may be. Many are not. 95 % of US prisons are full of your "good gentle Christians". Morality does not come from the gods. Nice try again. Fail. Your failed attempt to appropriate the moral high-ground is very obvious. The usual churchy clap-trap of believers who need to see themselves as morally superior. You don't know me. I am not "vehement" about anything. Just quiet and stubborn about such utter foolishness as you spout.
In short, you get an "F" for the days trolling. Try harder tomorrow, Pleasy.

There are wrong assertions above:

*That people who identify as Christians in prison are all real, born again Christians.

*That the Messiah of the HB had one task to complete, the political and not spiritual liberation of the Jewish people--or are you ignorant that the Bible contains a plan of salvation for Gentiles...?

*I assume you are Jewish, since you made comments about not many waiting for a Messiah.

*
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07-05-2013, 01:28 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(06-05-2013 07:47 PM)childeye Wrote:  God rules, Love rules. They are one and the same. You simply have a prejudice against the term God because of religion.

So god is love? What about all the smithing and killing first borns and abducting and raping women etc. etc. ad infinitum? Is that love? Is hell love? Is setting a trap for Adam and Eve to fall into love? Is creating humans and letting them suffer incredible atrocities love?

If anything is disdain and disrespect for humans, it's that god of yours.

He is most certainly not what I consider loving. He is vengeful, hateful, vain, and needs constant adoration. A malignant narcissist by today's definition.

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07-05-2013, 01:58 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2013 06:12 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(07-05-2013 11:16 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(07-05-2013 07:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No, I am not. Are you ? Nice try at deflection. You did not address the point at hand , as usual. Your Jebus did not accomplish the one task of a messiah, thus NONE of your falsely attributed "scriptures" can be said to apply to him, even if I were to agree prophesy is fortune telling, which I do not, (and which I see you have an entire career, mistakenly built on, and invested in ... built on shifting sands). What an idiot. My argument is not "identical". I don't buy into Yahweh, (the war god / god or the armies). Your "two advents" is irrelevant. Only a small number of Jews await a messiah. I await none. Your Jebus accomplished nothing. In the long sweep of history, nothing has changed after his, (one among many) term of mistaken apocalyptic preaching , and supposed miracle doing. Just like all the others, he was mistaken.

Your attempt to single out Christian as somehow unique as "gentle and good" is disingenuous. Some may be. Many are not. 95 % of US prisons are full of your "good gentle Christians". Morality does not come from the gods. Nice try again. Fail. Your failed attempt to appropriate the moral high-ground is very obvious. The usual churchy clap-trap of believers who need to see themselves as morally superior. You don't know me. I am not "vehement" about anything. Just quiet and stubborn about such utter foolishness as you spout.
In short, you get an "F" for the days trolling. Try harder tomorrow, Pleasy.

There are wrong assertions above:

*That people who identify as Christians in prison are all real, born again Christians.

*That the Messiah of the HB had one task to complete, the political and not spiritual liberation of the Jewish people--or are you ignorant that the Bible contains a plan of salvation for Gentiles...?

*I assume you are Jewish, since you made comments about not many waiting for a Messiah.

*

You have no clue what the people in prison are or are not. If they say they are, they are.

There never was, a "spiritual plan" for a messiah. That is a "Presentist" rationalization, as you well know. There never was a "plan of salvation". Salvation was unnecessary as the Torah scholar Martin Buber explained, in "Good and Evil". The Hebrews had nothing to save. They did not believe in immortality. What would be the purpose of "spiritual salvation" be if there was no soul, (as there is not) and in which they did not believe. Even St. Paul did not believe in immortality for all. Just the saved. So you see, you are debunked again. Your delusions have wrapped you up in convoluted blindness. Go to school, SPJTK. You're making a fool of yourself again. You assume wrong. I am NOT Jewish. I never was Jewish. You cooked up a new definition to fit your messianism, as the original one utterly failed, and you know it. You get an "F" for today's trolling.

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08-05-2013, 02:20 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
Quote:That is a "Presentist" rationalization, as you well know.
I cannot continue with someone who is so ignorant of all of Catholic history and doctrine, which doctrine existed 10 to 15 centuries before Protestant reformers, depending how you count.

Quote:Even St. Paul did not believe in immortality for all. Just the saved.

Paul believed in immortality for the lost and saved alike, just as Daniel had spoke about it hundreds of years earlier:

Daniel 12:1-2:

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The rest of your post is as off base.

I'm guessing you are a non-Messianic Jew since you keep telling me what the ancient Hebrews believed about immortality without any reference to scriptures like the ones above.

Finally, I do not need to hear your gross attacks and ad homs on me and other Christians in each and every post. Others here are far more open and interested in the truth.

I'm done replying to you, I'll let you know when and if I wish to reply to you again in this forum. Thank you.
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