Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
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08-05-2013, 02:22 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
Quote:So god is love? What about all the smithing and killing first borns and abducting and raping women etc. etc. ad infinitum? Is that love? Is hell love? Is setting a trap for Adam and Eve to fall into love? Is creating humans and letting them suffer incredible atrocities love?

If anything is disdain and disrespect for humans, it's that god of yours.

He is most certainly not what I consider loving. He is vengeful, hateful, vain, and needs constant adoration. A malignant narcissist by today's definition.

I'd respond to this but you are asking clearly rhetorical questions and have no need for answers today.

I note carefully you didn't include the following:

"What about Jesus dying and rising for me? Is that love?"

"What about God sparing Lot and his daughters?"

"What about God answering Christians' prayers?"

Etc.

Your glass is half-empty. What was it that convinced you God doesn't love? I want to hear your personal, not theological reasons. You're upset about something and isn't Bible verses, clearly.
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08-05-2013, 02:41 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2013 10:38 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(08-05-2013 02:20 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:That is a "Presentist" rationalization, as you well know.
I cannot continue with someone who is so ignorant of all of Catholic history and doctrine, which doctrine existed 10 to 15 centuries before Protestant reformers, depending how you count.

Quote:Even St. Paul did not believe in immortality for all. Just the saved.

Paul believed in immortality for the lost and saved alike, just as Daniel had spoke about it hundreds of years earlier:

Daniel 12:1-2:

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The rest of your post is as off base.

I'm guessing you are a non-Messianic Jew since you keep telling me what the ancient Hebrews believed about immortality without any reference to scriptures like the ones above.

Finally, I do not need to hear your gross attacks and ad homs on me and other Christians in each and every post. Others here are far more open and interested in the truth.

I'm done replying to you, I'll let you know when and if I wish to reply to you again in this forum. Thank you.

Well la-tee-da.
Patronizing Pompous JebusTroll. Now he starts talking about "catholic doctrine" after spouting that bible code ?? How strange and very inconsistent. ny excuse NOT to have to answer the points made about his nonsense.
I really could care less if you reply or not. Your replies are nonsense. You guessed wrong, and you are quite dense, as I said many times I am not a Jew. You prove your personal obtuseness over and over. You have made not ONE coherent point yet. "The rest is off base" is no reply, you intellectually lazy man. You have yet to make one point on this entire board in 3 or 4 months here, except unsupported, baseless assertions. Most of it about prophesy, which no one buys.

Too bad you know nothing of the Bible.
The Hebrews did not believe in immortality. No one cares about your catholic Doctrine. It DEVELOPED, over many centuries, as humans cooked it up. Immortality did not come to a complete notion until Aquinas used Augustine, in the Summa Theologica.

Saul of Tarsus did NOT believe in immortality.
1. He was a Jew.
2. Paul told the members of the congregation in Rome to "seek" immortality (Romans 2:5-7)
He taught Christians at Corinth that they must be changed and "put on" immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).
Paul proclaimed that only God and His Son possess immortality (1 Timothy 6:12-16), (even though he didn't really write that text).
and that eternal life is a "gift" from God (Romans 6:23)

Daniel was a messianic. Most Jews are/were not. Too bad you never studied the OT.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6 : "For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

So you have presented no arguments, no date for your lie about the prophesy of the death date ????
You are hereby dismissed.
The entire edifice of your hokey religion is built on a vengeful god who NEEDED his son to die, so he would be appeased. Therefore he is *subject* to Reality, not it's creator. That is no god. I have no respect for that nonsense. It's all built on layer upon layer of fallacy, and when the onion is peeled, it has a rotten core.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
The noblest of the dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.
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08-05-2013, 02:59 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(08-05-2013 02:22 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  "What about Jesus dying and rising for me? Is that love?"
"What about God sparing Lot and his daughters?"
"What about God answering Christians' prayers?"

Your glass is half-empty. What was it that convinced you God doesn't love? I want to hear your personal, not theological reasons. You're upset about something and isn't Bible verses, clearly.

Do you feel loving acts negate murderous ones?

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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08-05-2013, 03:00 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(08-05-2013 02:22 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:So god is love? What about all the smithing and killing first borns and abducting and raping women etc. etc. ad infinitum? Is that love? Is hell love? Is setting a trap for Adam and Eve to fall into love? Is creating humans and letting them suffer incredible atrocities love?

If anything is disdain and disrespect for humans, it's that god of yours.

He is most certainly not what I consider loving. He is vengeful, hateful, vain, and needs constant adoration. A malignant narcissist by today's definition.

I'd respond to this but you are asking clearly rhetorical questions and have no need for answers today.

I note carefully you didn't include the following:

"What about Jesus dying and rising for me? Is that love?"

"What about God sparing Lot and his daughters?"

"What about God answering Christians' prayers?"

Etc.

Your glass is half-empty. What was it that convinced you God doesn't love? I want to hear your personal, not theological reasons. You're upset about something and isn't Bible verses, clearly.

Why would a god send his own son to die a miserable death? Couldn't find a better way to fix things?

Why would he have to save Lot and his daughter and turn his wife into salt or whatever it was? He's god, he created the whole mess in the first place.

What prayers are answered? God does some horrible shit to a person, that person prays and prays and finds one lucky spot that didn't get completely destroyed and sings "Halleluya, my prayers were answered"?

This god of yours is either totally incompetent or a mean, vengeful, vain and plain disgusting piece of work!

What started me to think this way? I read the entire bible when I was 10. The old testament is enough to make you shudder. Why anyone would want to worship an evil power like the god there is beyond me.

What do you mean my glass is half empty? I have to sip from it constantly so it doesn't overflow.

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08-05-2013, 04:27 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(08-05-2013 02:20 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:That is a "Presentist" rationalization, as you well know.
I cannot continue with someone who is so ignorant of all of Catholic history and doctrine, which doctrine existed 10 to 15 centuries before Protestant reformers, depending how you count.

Quote:Even St. Paul did not believe in immortality for all. Just the saved.

Paul believed in immortality for the lost and saved alike, just as Daniel had spoke about it hundreds of years earlier:

Daniel 12:1-2:

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The rest of your post is as off base.

I'm guessing you are a non-Messianic Jew since you keep telling me what the ancient Hebrews believed about immortality without any reference to scriptures like the ones above.

Finally, I do not need to hear your gross attacks and ad homs on me and other Christians in each and every post. Others here are far more open and interested in the truth.

I'm done replying to you, I'll let you know when and if I wish to reply to you again in this forum. Thank you.

What about This?;

Ecclesiastes 9:5

New International Version (NIV)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
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08-05-2013, 10:28 PM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(07-05-2013 06:44 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Here's something that is illogical, that all of you freethinkers share in common.

You don't want to allow for context/Hebrew word play [Immanuel = God is with us/Logos is in flesh] and etc. so you say the prophecies were not fulfilled accurately AND you say the NT was written as a falsification to fulfill prophecies!

Which is it?

Please don't stereotype "freethinkers". I make a great effort not to stereotype theists, because stereotypes are illogical (the fallacy of hasty generalization).

Jesus was not only not called "Immanuel", but he was also not called "God with us" or "God in the flesh", either... at least, not in the writings of the gospels (in fact, not one refers to him as a god in any capacity). But even if he was, what you present before is a "false dichotomy" or "false dilemma". It does seem like a contradiction to say that the prophecies were not fulfilled accurately and that the NT was written in such a way to fulfill prophecies, but it's not a contradiction if the authors *intended* to fulfill prophecy but did a horrible job of it. Great examples of this are Matthew's attempts to have Jesus born in Bethlehem to fulfill the prophecy in Micah (but he had to miquote it because he didn't realize that Bethlehem was a person, not a city) and later in his gospel we see him mistakenly put Jesus on a horse and a donkey (not understanding that the poetry in Zechariah 9:9 was only referring to one animal, as the other gospel writers understood).

And of course, the use of Immanuel was yet another case of the gospel writers attempting to fulfill prophecy but doing it poorly.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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09-05-2013, 06:30 AM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
Quote:Do you feel loving acts negate murderous ones?

Have you looked closely at the lives and acts of people like Gandhi, Dr. King, and Jesus Christ? The answer is... yes.

Quote:Why would a god send his own son to die a miserable death? Couldn't find a better way to fix things?

No, He could not. Christians know about sin and sin is a powerful force indeed. Most Calvinists and Arminians alike agree, God has set up an economy where the maximal number of people can find redemption.

Quote:What about This?;

Ecclesiastes 9:5

I'm sorry it's not readily apparent to you that Solomon is writing, as did all Bible writers, from his heart and mind. The whole of Ecclesiastes focuses on what is meaningful in life and looks closely at a person's deeds. On earth, we die and are buried and (most of us) long forgotten. This is not a contradiction with Old and New Testament looks at immortality as the same book, Ecclesiastes, is explicit that worshipping God during this life is of future benefit. Solomon also spoke with God elsewhere on these matters as did his father, King David.

Quote:Please don't stereotype "freethinkers". I make a great effort not to stereotype theists, because stereotypes are illogical (the fallacy of hasty generalization).

Jesus was not only not called "Immanuel", but he was also not called "God with us" or "God in the flesh", either... at least, not in the writings of the gospels (in fact, not one refers to him as a god in any capacity). But even if he was, what you present before is a "false dichotomy" or "false dilemma". It does seem like a contradiction to say that the prophecies were not fulfilled accurately and that the NT was written in such a way to fulfill prophecies, but it's not a contradiction if the authors *intended* to fulfill prophecy but did a horrible job of it. Great examples of this are Matthew's attempts to have Jesus born in Bethlehem to fulfill the prophecy in Micah (but he had to miquote it because he didn't realize that Bethlehem was a person, not a city) and later in his gospel we see him mistakenly put Jesus on a horse and a donkey (not understanding that the poetry in Zechariah 9:9 was only referring to one animal, as the other gospel writers understood).

And of course, the use of Immanuel was yet another case of the gospel writers attempting to fulfill prophecy but doing it poorly.

Not so for two reasons:

1. Your Bethlehem note is a new "contradiction" to me and interesting.

Bethlehem in Micah is plainly a CLAN of people, the "least of the tribes of Judah"; 5:2. Matthew is plain in his geneaology that Jesus is of Judah from David, therefore David's grandson Joseph traveled there for an accounting.

However, it's not a contradiction to identify a people with a place. We travel to Georgia, USA, to be with Georgians.

Does this solve the issue for you?

2. Likewise, names in the Bible all have meanings, there are over 100 examples I'm sure we can think of. Matthew or MattitaYAHU means "Gift of God". Daniel or DaniEL means "God is judge".

Immanuel means "God is with us". Jesus is Messiah and people say of Him/said of Him that "He is God in flesh. God is [still] with us." It would be hard to imagine a more obvious fulfilled prophecy. When a Jewish person explores trusting Jesus for salvation, since they believe in one monotheist God (ancient Jews taught a triune God and some religious Jews do now but that is an argument for another time) they HAVE to understand Jesus is divine. This is likewise a sticking point for Muslims, right? The most common Muslim question/argument is "How can God be in a man?" since the worst sin to a Muslim is ascribing a helper or partner to God.

In other words, then and now, the question on everyone's mind is "Can Jesus be divine?" Christians say Jesus is God with us or "Immanuel".

The SAME passage in Isaiah says Messiah is Prince of Peace, Wonderful Counselor and the Mighty God. Were you expecting the Messiah to have all these titles as names or as appelations? Thank you.
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09-05-2013, 06:32 AM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2013 06:37 AM by DeavonReye.)
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(08-05-2013 02:22 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I note carefully you didn't include the following:

1. "What about Jesus dying and rising for me? Is that love?"

2. "What about God sparing Lot and his daughters?"

3. "What about God answering Christians' prayers?"

1. You mean, . . . the thing about a god who was so angry at a normal acting person that 'he' INSISTED upon "something innocent dying bloody" before 'he' can be alleviated of his wrath?

2. You mean after killing unknown number of children and babies in 'his' [once again, wrathful] episode of fire and brimstone from heaven, . . . and turning Lot's wife into salt [killing her] merely for "looking back"?

3. You mean the petty prayers [and simple ones, like help in finding car keys], when the prayers based on a selfless and far more moral/ethical motives are left alone?

I can't help but remember this excellent video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc1Vt9S9v8Q

If someone knows how to make this video show in a post, please do so. Thanks.
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09-05-2013, 07:17 AM
RE: Somehing Christians Should NEVER EVER EVER Use For Proof
(09-05-2013 06:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Do you feel loving acts negate murderous ones?

Have you looked closely at the lives and acts of people like Gandhi, Dr. King, and Jesus Christ? The answer is... yes.

Are you giving your god credit for giving us Gandhi and Dr. King? I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning here. The kill count in the bible is high, as are the number of deaths in god's name, the number of deaths caused by incurable diseases (including many children... he IS the creator, yes?), etc. I don't see how he's negated this. This sounds like Stockholm Syndrome.

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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