Someone who denies God.
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17-06-2015, 10:10 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(17-06-2015 08:57 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 08:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What tells us God is good?

* You know what good is--even if as a skeptic, you will devoutly refuse to say good and evil can be objective rather than subjective terms--unless of course, I try to say that Hitler would be a good person in the eyes of a skeptic! Sorry to Godwin you, but...

* Repeating... you know what good is...

* You judge others for being not good...

* You are well on the way thusly to an understanding of God's goodness. Since "good" is a concept that can be objectified yet not an object in and of itself, you will need some kind of goodness scale before judging God's goodness. You need a measuring system... keep going...

That doesn't tell me how you can say that God is good.

Still in our thought experiment. God created the human, but never gave them the ability to know good and evil and thus judge things according to those principles. The Serpent convinced Eve to eat the apple that contained the knowledge of good and evil and she, in turn, convinced Adam to do the same thing. God was very mad when he discovered it. He told us not to do it. It was his only rule. He damned humans and cursed the serpent for doing that. Since God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we ate his knowledge of good and evil. Thus, God knows evil. Since God knows evil this means he can be evil if he wants to. Why is he not?

God isn't evil cause believers don't want their favorite invisible friend to be evil. There is no other real reason for this I would say. Also god being good does not depend on his actions - he is good cause he is/cause clergy says so/cause believers want him to be.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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17-06-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(17-06-2015 10:10 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 08:57 AM)epronovost Wrote:  That doesn't tell me how you can say that God is good.

Still in our thought experiment. God created the human, but never gave them the ability to know good and evil and thus judge things according to those principles. The Serpent convinced Eve to eat the apple that contained the knowledge of good and evil and she, in turn, convinced Adam to do the same thing. God was very mad when he discovered it. He told us not to do it. It was his only rule. He damned humans and cursed the serpent for doing that. Since God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we ate his knowledge of good and evil. Thus, God knows evil. Since God knows evil this means he can be evil if he wants to. Why is he not?

God isn't evil cause believers don't want their favorite invisible friend to be evil. There is no other real reason for this I would say. Also god being good does not depend on his actions - he is good cause he is/cause clergy says so/cause believers want him to be.

I completely agree with you on that point. But, I was wondering if my other interlocutor had a better explanation then because we say so or God say so. Let's find out.
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17-06-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(17-06-2015 10:22 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 10:10 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  God isn't evil cause believers don't want their favorite invisible friend to be evil. There is no other real reason for this I would say. Also god being good does not depend on his actions - he is good cause he is/cause clergy says so/cause believers want him to be.

I completely agree with you on that point. But, I was wondering if my other interlocutor had a better explanation then because we say so or God say so. Let's find out.

I'm afraid there is no other reason that atheist would find convincing. How god can be good if he allow hunger or mass killings? Or if someone claim that this is result of free will why god made world in which natural catastrophes are cause of so many deaths.

There is no way in which god can be good I think, except from having at least two gods of the same power. One is good, one is evil and problem solved. Also one can claim that we can not judge god, cause x but I find this riddiculous.

Some more refined justifications for god being good may exists but for me it is only playing with words.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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17-06-2015, 10:37 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
I don't think the Christian God was ever supposed to be good. We made him good is the desire of his worshipers to not be under the foot a being that despite being their alledged creator was to them what a violent father or mother is to it's family.
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17-06-2015, 10:51 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(17-06-2015 08:18 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 08:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  Except Dawkins, unlike any gods, is demonstrably not fiction. The god of the Bible is not what you describe.

Funny, I've encountered a lot of philosophy in Dawkins's writings. When someone philosophizes about metaphysics, to hear you say "it's all fact!" seems like you are trying to have things both ways... Drinking Beverage

Funny, you have a hard time following the conversation.

You said "Dawkins is one of the more unpleasant characters in all of fiction" and my response was to that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-06-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(17-06-2015 08:57 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 08:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What tells us God is good?

* You know what good is--even if as a skeptic, you will devoutly refuse to say good and evil can be objective rather than subjective terms--unless of course, I try to say that Hitler would be a good person in the eyes of a skeptic! Sorry to Godwin you, but...

* Repeating... you know what good is...

* You judge others for being not good...

* You are well on the way thusly to an understanding of God's goodness. Since "good" is a concept that can be objectified yet not an object in and of itself, you will need some kind of goodness scale before judging God's goodness. You need a measuring system... keep going...

That doesn't tell me how you can say that God is good.

Still in our thought experiment. God created the human, but never gave them the ability to know good and evil and thus judge things according to those principles. The Serpent convinced Eve to eat the apple that contained the knowledge of good and evil and she, in turn, convinced Adam to do the same thing. God was very mad when he discovered it. He told us not to do it. It was his only rule. He damned humans and cursed the serpent for doing that. Since God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we ate his knowledge of good and evil. Thus, God knows evil. Since God knows evil this means he can be evil if he wants to. Why is he not?

You are making a common error. Christians make it also. Instead of "know/didn't know good and evil" why not say the more correct, "Adam and Eve were told to obey their parent and creator, who showed them the whole paradise he made, and then they learned what evil FELT like in disobeying the ONE command He gave them re: the tree"?

Regarding your second point. Of course God knows what evil is. But He does what He wants to do, just like you. It's called free will. Because His nature is very good, He does very good things. Because our nature is weaker, and our character weaker, we do good and evil both.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-06-2015, 08:51 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(17-06-2015 10:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 10:22 AM)epronovost Wrote:  I completely agree with you on that point. But, I was wondering if my other interlocutor had a better explanation then because we say so or God say so. Let's find out.

I'm afraid there is no other reason that atheist would find convincing. How god can be good if he allow hunger or mass killings? Or if someone claim that this is result of free will why god made world in which natural catastrophes are cause of so many deaths.

There is no way in which god can be good I think, except from having at least two gods of the same power. One is good, one is evil and problem solved. Also one can claim that we can not judge god, cause x but I find this riddiculous.

Some more refined justifications for god being good may exists but for me it is only playing with words.

As most skeptics, you are missing the point. First, prove that hunger and mass whatever are evil.

At the risk of a Godwin, Hitler and millions of followers said causing hunger and mass death was GOOD. The burden of proof is on them... and on you.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-06-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(18-06-2015 08:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  As most skeptics, you are missing the point. First, prove that hunger and mass whatever are evil.

At the risk of a Godwin, Hitler and millions of followers said causing hunger and mass death was GOOD. The burden of proof is on them... and on you.

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2


Why are you using Hitler on an atheist website?

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18-06-2015, 08:58 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(18-06-2015 08:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 10:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I'm afraid there is no other reason that atheist would find convincing. How god can be good if he allow hunger or mass killings? Or if someone claim that this is result of free will why god made world in which natural catastrophes are cause of so many deaths.

There is no way in which god can be good I think, except from having at least two gods of the same power. One is good, one is evil and problem solved. Also one can claim that we can not judge god, cause x but I find this riddiculous.

Some more refined justifications for god being good may exists but for me it is only playing with words.

As most skeptics, you are missing the point. First, prove that hunger and mass whatever are evil.

At the risk of a Godwin, Hitler and millions of followers said causing hunger and mass death was GOOD. The burden of proof is on them... and on you.

As most believers you have only shitty apologies and idiotic excuses. Though what else I can expect from someone who is indoctrinated? Admiting that favorite invisible friend is evil or indifferent? No way god is good cause we believe that he is good. No other reason are needed.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-06-2015, 04:19 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2015 08:34 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Someone who denies God.
@The Q Continuum

You have dodge the question again. Why is God good. Saying he is good because he has a good nature is tautologic. How can we say he has a good nature? You can create the univers and still be a monumental you know what, just like you can father or mother a child and be a monster to him or her.
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