Someone who denies God.
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08-07-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(08-07-2015 10:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-07-2015 09:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  You can define god any way you like; just produce evidence that your definition is correct.


"Do your homework", "Brush your teeth" aren't suffering, you disingenuous twat.

Funny, but when I ask TTA members to define suffering, they can't quite seem to, or when I ask them to define unjust suffering... perhaps you can do so without merely resorting to statements like "brush your teeth isn't it"...

Go for it! Because I suffer to read your comments, yet you both impose them on me and then say causing others to suffer is unjust (as you judge God doing so)! Be specific... Drinking Beverage

Injuries and deaths from disease, accident, disaster; I would think that obvious. Even to you.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-07-2015, 04:17 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2015 05:35 AM by epronovost.)
RE: Someone who denies God.
(07-07-2015 09:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(19-06-2015 09:41 AM)epronovost Wrote:  So you say God is good and has a good nature, but I have to tell you what good is? If you don't know what good is, how can you say God is good and has a good nature? You still didn't answer the question. Since it’s the fifth time or so I asked you why you thought God was good and you still didn’t told me why, I am starting to consider you are afraid to answer the question honestly because you think I might found the reason invalid or stupid. My opinion on your potential reason should be unimportant to you. Don’t try to please me or impress me or gain any form of extra ration of respect from me. I ask you for your opinion on a subject that has very little impact on me out of intellectual curiosity. The nature of God (good, evil or anything in between) won’t make him more or less real for me. I will still be an atheist and you will still be a faithful. I might give you my opinion on the subject once you explained me yours if it interest you, but for now I would like to hear you on that subject. How and why can we say that God is good?

All,

God is good because he judges fairly and impartially, offers His love to all, even the most vile persons, saves us and redeems those who trust in Him, changing their lives here and now and in the next world, etc. I can think of dozens of reasons, but the fact remains--for you or I to define God as good, bad or in-between will require some basic definitions, e.g. what is "good".

I would say a just person is good. I would say a just and wise parent sometimes causes deliberate suffering in a child's life--"Do your homework, clean your room, brush your teeth before you play hopscotch outside". Some atheists here feel all suffering is evil. So they would say both God is evil AND most parents are evil. How can we discuss terms when those kinds of definitions are held by atheists? I don't think we can...

Sweet fat Buddha! I finally have an answer to my question. It was a bit long and hard for nothing, but at least we can start talking about it. If I resume your work correctly, God is good because he is just, fair, impartial and generous. I would agree with you. An entity who is fair, just, impartial and generous is indeed good.

If you are interested in my opinion, here it is. The Abrahamic God doesn't present a shining example of fairness, impartiality and generosity. If we accept that he is omnipotent and omniscient, then we must accept that he is morally responsible for everything good, bad or neutral for lack of better terms. If you lose your keys it his fault. If you find them, it’s his fault too. If you feel love, it’s because of him. If you feel pain, it’s because of him. If you kill yourself in a state of great despair, he is responsible for your state and your death.

Since he possess ultimate power and knowledge, he must be judged in accordance to his abilities. God isn't accidently harmful. He can't be deluded or misguided like Hitler. He cannot be irresponsible or unconscious like a mentally challenged killer. Descartes said it and Spiderman popularised it: «With great powers comes great responsibility.». Since there is nothing more powerful than God, he must be the most harshly judged being in the universe for, on his shoulders, rest all our problems and all our solutions. God has to be held to moral standard higher than any human being. At the very best, an omnipotent and omniscient being could be considered neither good nor bad (kind of neutral if you prefer).
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08-07-2015, 04:31 PM
RE: Someone who denies God.
If you bother to respond at all Q...I was raised by two abusive parents. I carry scars within and without thanks to them.

As a child, I really believed that if I prayed to God, he would help me. He didn't. Ever. I prayed with all my might...eventually I figured that not only was I not worth anything to my parents but not to God either. For years I was just terribly hurt and felt betrayed by them all...

Jesus loves the little children - but not me.

Even if I suddenly found evidence that your god exists, he isn't what he is hyped up to be. Even if he appeared before me - it's too little and too late.

Rave on about your just god and how great he is. You can have him.

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09-07-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(08-07-2015 04:17 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 09:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

God is good because he judges fairly and impartially, offers His love to all, even the most vile persons, saves us and redeems those who trust in Him, changing their lives here and now and in the next world, etc. I can think of dozens of reasons, but the fact remains--for you or I to define God as good, bad or in-between will require some basic definitions, e.g. what is "good".

I would say a just person is good. I would say a just and wise parent sometimes causes deliberate suffering in a child's life--"Do your homework, clean your room, brush your teeth before you play hopscotch outside". Some atheists here feel all suffering is evil. So they would say both God is evil AND most parents are evil. How can we discuss terms when those kinds of definitions are held by atheists? I don't think we can...

Sweet fat Buddha! I finally have an answer to my question. It was a bit long and hard for nothing, but at least we can start talking about it. If I resume your work correctly, God is good because he is just, fair, impartial and generous. I would agree with you. An entity who is fair, just, impartial and generous is indeed good.

If you are interested in my opinion, here it is. The Abrahamic God doesn't present a shining example of fairness, impartiality and generosity. If we accept that he is omnipotent and omniscient, then we must accept that he is morally responsible for everything good, bad or neutral for lack of better terms. If you lose your keys it his fault. If you find them, it’s his fault too. If you feel love, it’s because of him. If you feel pain, it’s because of him. If you kill yourself in a state of great despair, he is responsible for your state and your death.

Since he possess ultimate power and knowledge, he must be judged in accordance to his abilities. God isn't accidently harmful. He can't be deluded or misguided like Hitler. He cannot be irresponsible or unconscious like a mentally challenged killer. Descartes said it and Spiderman popularised it: «With great powers comes great responsibility.». Since there is nothing more powerful than God, he must be the most harshly judged being in the universe for, on his shoulders, rest all our problems and all our solutions. God has to be held to moral standard higher than any human being. At the very best, an omnipotent and omniscient being could be considered neither good nor bad (kind of neutral if you prefer).

If you feel God should so be judged--and frankly, I agree with you--know that he was, utterly. That is the story of Christianity.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-07-2015, 10:14 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
All,

I sincerely feel for your past and present hurts. I was away from this account for two weeks for two reasons--one, a missions trip to South America. Second, I returned to learn my aunt had passed following a long battle with Stage IV cancer. I visited her on the way to my flight out of the U.S. and she was incoherent. I spent last week traveling to and attending her funeral.

The funeral was standing room only. She was not a Christian but was a very, very good person. People wept throughout the two-hour memorial service and I spoke from the podium. I reported this statement from my sister, who was unable to attend:

"...When my aunt found out she was sick--it was heartbreaking for everyone in our family. So much so that grudges were put aside--and family members who hadn't spoken in years to each other mended broken relationships to stand united for my aunt--and you know what she said to me? 'If getting cancer is what it took everyone to reunite then it was worth it.'"

Suffering has meaning, but it sounds like the TTA members aren't judging God for all suffering, just extreme suffering. I can understand that hurt.

The only thing that comes to mind to tell Anjele is that those who hurt you had free will. God could have taken their free will away, but then he would have had to take yours away also. All hurts not addressed in this world will be FULLY redressed in the next world. Particular, severe punishment is meted out to those who hurt children. I'm sorry--and God will exhibit wrath on those who hurt children--but we may find solace in the power of forgiveness as well.

When I hear statements like those my sister made regarding my aunt's cancer, I am reminded that all suffering has meaning. Yes, all. It may not seem that way to TTA members--indeed, suffering can be inexplicable to born again Christians, too, but I've had a lot of suffering in my life and a lot of time to reflect.

Finally, those of you who are sick, physically or emotionally, I will pray for healings for you. I've seen those happen also.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-07-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
@The Q Continuum

«If you feel God should so be judged--and frankly, I agree with you--know that he was, utterly. That is the story of Christianity. »

I must admit your last statement is confusing me. I would be tempted to call it an evasive answer to a moral dilemma. You are trying to avoid a conclusion: that God cannot be good if he is omnipotent and omniscient like he is usually presented to us. You stated earlier that you had a firm belief that God was good, had a good nature and that this could be demonstrated, amongst other thing, by his ability to judge fairly, to be impartial, generous and all loving. Presented by the fact that God wasn't always generous, impartial, just and fair; that he could be the exact opposite of these virtues on several occasions; that an omnipotent, omniscient being cannot be good because it would never be able to meet the burden of responsibility that our reality present it, you seem to haven't changed your vision of God's morality.

To me this proves evidently that IF (that's quite a leap of faith to present it has true) there is such a thing as an immortal, omniscient, omnipotent being called God that created the cosmos and all within it, this being isn't good. He is still God, but he isn't good. He's simply stronger. At best, he is on your side. Would you like to continue to defend the idea that your God is good, and not only good, perfectly good?

Maybe I am a bit ignorant on that specific subject, but I thought that the story of Christianity was that of forgiveness. God forgive his creation for all their evil deeds by sacrificing his own flesh to wash away our cursed souls. It’s the story of the ultimate sacrifice of a loving and perfect deity to its flawed creation. By your comment above I would be tempted to think that the story of Christianity is the story of God being judge evil by human and executed for his crimes and malevolence against his own creation. I don’t think the story of Christianity is that of us forgiving God, but more of God forgiving us and as I said earlier since he is ultimately responsible of everything, than it’s he who needs to ask forgiveness.
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09-07-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(09-07-2015 10:14 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

I sincerely feel for your past and present hurts. I was away from this account for two weeks for two reasons--one, a missions trip to South America. Second, I returned to learn my aunt had passed following a long battle with Stage IV cancer. I visited her on the way to my flight out of the U.S. and she was incoherent. I spent last week traveling to and attending her funeral.

The funeral was standing room only. She was not a Christian but was a very, very good person. People wept throughout the two-hour memorial service and I spoke from the podium. I reported this statement from my sister, who was unable to attend:

"...When my aunt found out she was sick--it was heartbreaking for everyone in our family. So much so that grudges were put aside--and family members who hadn't spoken in years to each other mended broken relationships to stand united for my aunt--and you know what she said to me? 'If getting cancer is what it took everyone to reunite then it was worth it.'"

Suffering has meaning, but it sounds like the TTA members aren't judging God for all suffering, just extreme suffering. I can understand that hurt.

The only thing that comes to mind to tell Anjele is that those who hurt you had free will. God could have taken their free will away, but then he would have had to take yours away also. All hurts not addressed in this world will be FULLY redressed in the next world. Particular, severe punishment is meted out to those who hurt children. I'm sorry--and God will exhibit wrath on those who hurt children--but we may find solace in the power of forgiveness as well.

When I hear statements like those my sister made regarding my aunt's cancer, I am reminded that all suffering has meaning. Yes, all. It may not seem that way to TTA members--indeed, suffering can be inexplicable to born again Christians, too, but I've had a lot of suffering in my life and a lot of time to reflect.

Finally, those of you who are sick, physically or emotionally, I will pray for healings for you. I've seen those happen also.


First of all, I'm sorry for your aunts death. It sounds like she was well loved by many and that's a fantastic thing.

However, she didn't have to suffer to bring family members together. It could have happened without that event.

Quote:..but it sounds like the TTA members aren't judging God for all suffering, just extreme suffering. I can understand that hurt.

Well, no we arent' judging god for teeny-tiny suffering, mild suffering or extreme suffering because god has never been proven to exist.

Quote: Suffering has meaning.


Glorifying suffering is just another way to passively accept it as a gift from an unproven deity. Giving it some magical purpose is another reason to do nothing about it. Science has done more to eliminate suffering in the past hundred years than thousands of religions have in the last 10 thousand years and science did it because they questioned the magical-god meaning theology traditionally gives it.

Suffering has meaning? Yes! It means your suffering. Ask Banjo and Anj and many others on this forum.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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09-07-2015, 03:34 PM
RE: Someone who denies God.
I am sorry to hear about the loss of your aunt. She sounds like a wonderful person.

The rest feels like excuses and flowery words. But I will leave that for now and simply offer my condolences on the loss of your family member.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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09-07-2015, 05:12 PM
RE: Someone who denies God.
Q, I am very sorry to learn of your loss. Sad

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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10-07-2015, 12:02 AM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2015 12:06 AM by Talviomena.)
RE: Someone who denies God.
(09-07-2015 10:14 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Suffering has meaning

I was born with a incurable disabling chronic pain disease. As a kid i was not able to take part playing with the other kids for the most of the time because i was most likely to dislocate a joint or a vertebra, get internal bleeding or wear out my muscles to the point i was barely able to move my legs for a few days. I was also scared to go to sleep because i would always wake up to a horrible neck and headaches, everytime i woke up i felt like i got hit with a sledgehammer to my face, the excruciating headaches would last hours on end, sometimes even weeks with no relief at all. After years of physiotherapy and chronic pain medications i was able to get those head and neckpains under control, but still continue to have horrible problems with my back, limbs, innards, heart, joints, skin, vertebras, blood vessels, muscles...

I basically had to retire from everything in my teens, i'm not able to study because reading, writing, moving, sitting in a car, carrying books or a back-pack will give me horrible pain afterwards, i've tried working 3 days a week for 4 hours a day in supermarket's etc but my body is not basically able to handle anything.
It's hard to brush my teeth without straining my neck or dislocating a finger, grabbing a carton of milk from the fridge because i might dislocate a vertebra from my back, turning around in bed because i might tear something from my neck and get an internal bleeding. So according to you this has some meaning?

I'm only able to live because of the help of friends, relatives, doctors, special ergonomic furniture, headrest, back support, wrist rests, finger supports, knee support and pain medications.

(09-07-2015 10:14 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Particular, severe punishment is meted out to those who hurt children. I'm sorry--and God will exhibit wrath on those who hurt children

If god created us, he also created me with this disease.
So will god get punished in the "next life" for hurting me so much when i was kid?

Here's a good video to describe the EDS syndrome.


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