Someone who denies God.
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10-07-2015, 10:28 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
All,

Thanks for your heartfelt condolences on the passing of my aunt.

I know others who were born with debilitating conditions. And I'm sorry a TTA member was struck with Ehlers Danlos. I'm sure, Talviomena, your story and your overcoming your disability will inspire and give hope to others. There is always meaning to suffering, particularly if the sufferer invests it with meaning.

Logically, if we say as skeptics no suffering has meaning, then we are forced to say that neither pleasure nor joy has meaning, either. Be consistent.

When I say God was judged, we must recognize that in Christianity God suffered. He was judged, He was condemned, He was tortured, He died. We have available to us in Christ someone who understands anything, everything we've ever suffered or enjoyed.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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10-07-2015, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2015 11:11 AM by epronovost.)
RE: Someone who denies God.
@The Q Continuum

You are right. Emotional experiences have no meanings. They have value based on what they give us.

Furthermore, I would like to add that if «God» was indeed punished through Jesus's death, it’s a very poor judgment. The Abrahamic god would be omnipotent and omniscient which means that he did experimented more pain than a century ago. His death wasn't the most painful imaginable and since he could have only been condemned for crimes earlier to those of his death, he would still be guilty of changing nothing to our reality and our sufferings for 2000 years. We call that recidivism. That’s a very guilty fictional character in my opinion.

Edited for an extra point.
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10-07-2015, 10:52 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(10-07-2015 10:28 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Thanks for your heartfelt condolences on the passing of my aunt.

I know others who were born with debilitating conditions. And I'm sorry a TTA member was struck with Ehlers Danlos. I'm sure, Talviomena, your story and your overcoming your disability will inspire and give hope to others. There is always meaning to suffering, particularly if the sufferer invests it with meaning.

Logically, if we say as skeptics no suffering has meaning, then we are forced to say that neither pleasure nor joy has meaning, either. Be consistent.

When I say God was judged, we must recognize that in Christianity God suffered. He was judged, He was condemned, He was tortured, He died. We have available to us in Christ someone who understands anything, everything we've ever suffered or enjoyed.

This behavior is completely patterned to that of the abused person in a relationship who has been physically beaten repeatedly, but says it's okay and they still know they are loved and should be together. They'll say, we'll he was judged and punished for it because 1 day the person got arrested and spent the night in jail, but even after that the abuse remains. It's okay, the abuser got punished and judged to so it's okay right? This is sad mental attachment regardless of circumstances.

Is there any standard, any possible perspective that could make you think your God was flawed and harmful instead of great? It boils down to that, is there anything practical you think could have you believe that?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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10-07-2015, 10:52 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(10-07-2015 10:28 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Thanks for your heartfelt condolences on the passing of my aunt.

I know others who were born with debilitating conditions. And I'm sorry a TTA member was struck with Ehlers Danlos. I'm sure, Talviomena, your story and your overcoming your disability will inspire and give hope to others. There is always meaning to suffering, particularly if the sufferer invests it with meaning.

Logically, if we say as skeptics no suffering has meaning, then we are forced to say that neither pleasure nor joy has meaning, either. Be consistent.

No suffering or pleasure or joy has intrinsic meaning, only the meaning we give it.

It is amusing how you say 'we as skeptics'. You are no skeptic.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-07-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
You truly disappoint Q. I think that there is an intelligent human being inside you that has been consumed by delusion to the point that your humanity is largely lost.

This all powerful god that you seem to be so fond of can dole out and stop suffering, per your belief. How is he still a great and loving being if he continues to cause suffering among those he supposedly loves and cares so much for?

That's not love. When you make people suffer and expect them to stay by your side, praise you, and not question why...then you are an abuser.

When you cause suffering to the point where people beg you to stop and you don't then you are also a sadist.

As I said earlier - you can have him. I gave the whole god thing a chance - god was just another abusive figure and I had enough real ones to deal with, I didn't need an imaginary one too.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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10-07-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(10-07-2015 12:02 AM)Talviomena Wrote:  
(09-07-2015 10:14 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Suffering has meaning

I was born with a incurable disabling chronic pain disease. As a kid i was not able to take part playing with the other kids for the most of the time because i was most likely to dislocate a joint or a vertebra, get internal bleeding or wear out my muscles to the point i was barely able to move my legs for a few days. I was also scared to go to sleep because i would always wake up to a horrible neck and headaches, everytime i woke up i felt like i got hit with a sledgehammer to my face, the excruciating headaches would last hours on end, sometimes even weeks with no relief at all. After years of physiotherapy and chronic pain medications i was able to get those head and neckpains under control, but still continue to have horrible problems with my back, limbs, innards, heart, joints, skin, vertebras, blood vessels, muscles...

I basically had to retire from everything in my teens, i'm not able to study because reading, writing, moving, sitting in a car, carrying books or a back-pack will give me horrible pain afterwards, i've tried working 3 days a week for 4 hours a day in supermarket's etc but my body is not basically able to handle anything.
It's hard to brush my teeth without straining my neck or dislocating a finger, grabbing a carton of milk from the fridge because i might dislocate a vertebra from my back, turning around in bed because i might tear something from my neck and get an internal bleeding. So according to you this has some meaning?

I'm only able to live because of the help of friends, relatives, doctors, special ergonomic furniture, headrest, back support, wrist rests, finger supports, knee support and pain medications.

(09-07-2015 10:14 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Particular, severe punishment is meted out to those who hurt children. I'm sorry--and God will exhibit wrath on those who hurt children

If god created us, he also created me with this disease.
So will god get punished in the "next life" for hurting me so much when i was kid?

Here's a good video to describe the EDS syndrome.



Wow. I learned something new. I'm so, so sorry to hear about your suffering. Is science making any headway to try to find a cure or at least alleviate some of the pain?

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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10-07-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(10-07-2015 11:12 AM)Anjele Wrote:  You truly disappoint Q. I think that there is an intelligent human being inside you that has been consumed by delusion to the point that your humanity is largely lost.

This all powerful god that you seem to be so fond of can dole out and stop suffering, per your belief. How is he still a great and loving being if he continues to cause suffering among those he supposedly loves and cares so much for?

That's not love. When you make people suffer and expect them to stay by your side, praise you, and not question why...then you are an abuser.

When you cause suffering to the point where people beg you to stop and you don't then you are also a sadist.

As I said earlier - you can have him. I gave the whole god thing a chance - god was just another abusive figure and I had enough real ones to deal with, I didn't need an imaginary one too.

Anjele, I'm reminded of an incident with Mother Teresa that she herself wrote about.

“There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ's Passion. The world gains much from their suffering.

"One day I met a lady who was dying of cancer in a most terrible condition. And I told her, I say, "You know, this terrible pain is only the kiss of Jesus — a sign that you have come so close to Jesus on the cross that he can kiss you." And she (the cancer patient) joined her hands together and said, Mother Teresa, please tell Jesus to stop kissing me." (bold emphasis is mine)

What a horrible way to view suffering.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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11-07-2015, 02:10 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(10-07-2015 04:22 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Wow. I learned something new. I'm so, so sorry to hear about your suffering. Is science making any headway to try to find a cure or at least alleviate some of the pain?

Thank you for your kind words.

The best cure is to get diagnosed as young as possible and start the physiotherapy to slow down the symptoms. EDS is still very unknown disease wich makes it hard for some people to get a proper diagnosis and start to recieve the information and help they need to go through life.

As an adult you learn to accept the disease and will learn to live with it.
It's hard for kids because of course you want to play with the other kids rather than just sit aside.

Random fact: EDS is also found in some animals like cats, dogs and horses.
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11-07-2015, 02:24 AM
RE: Someone who denies God.
(08-07-2015 09:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  "Do your homework", "Brush your teeth" aren't suffering, you disingenuous twat.

Well, I can't agree on the first one. That was real suffering right there! Weeping

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13-07-2015, 01:14 PM
RE: Someone who denies God.
All,

You have raised some interesting points. First, Jesus could not have suffered any more than He did. He tasted death for everyone, He was beaten and tortured by many people overnight and into the next day and then the Father poured His wrath onto His Son. Don't underestimate what Christ has done for us.

Second, for those who say "why doesn't God take away all suffering?" he most certainly does. All eventually cease suffering and enter Heaven, unless they choose to continue suffering. God does not stamp on your free will. Use it, exercise it wisely. Please.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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