Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
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13-02-2017, 11:46 AM
RE: Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
(13-02-2017 11:40 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Sure, that may well be happening. But I wouldn't change how I act. I'm not going to spend my life following arbitrary rules I don't agree with just to please this evil monster, when he can easily just turn around and dump me in hell anyway. So I'd just ignore it and carry on. It would be depressing to know something like that was in charge, but there's nothing I could do about it.

In other words, they may also be headed there. You can't exactly trust this guy. He's clearly deranged.
Er ... I lost my focus there for a minute. You talking about living under BibleGod, or under Trump?Evil_monster
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13-02-2017, 11:55 AM
RE: Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
Hmm. Fits Trump even better Tongue

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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13-02-2017, 11:57 AM
RE: Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
That's the thing right... it's seemingly often assumed that God is going to keep its word. Why would we assume that? Based on the fact that it is clearly salivating over torturing helpless beings for the most bizarre of reasons, and in fact writes a book so that it's impossible not to break its rules, I trust it as far as I can throw it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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13-02-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
(13-02-2017 11:57 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  That's the thing right... it's seemingly often assumed that God is going to keep its word. Why would we assume that? Based on the fact that it is clearly salivating over torturing helpless beings for the most bizarre of reasons, and in fact writes a book so that it's impossible not to break its rules, I trust it as far as I can throw it.
Well, that, and the fact that this being

1) Makes people basically incapable of not breaking at least one rule, even if all of them were totally unambiguous and crystal clear

2) Pitches a snit when that happens, and

3) The rules are of his choosing anyway.

This being could have made rules that were clear and able to be followed, and/or, could have made these beings fully capable of mindless obedience / devoid of free will so they would never offend his tender sensibilities.

But he did neither. Inescapable conclusion: he gets off on punishing transgressors and wants a steady stream of them to torment.

Imagine how it could have been. The ten commandments could have started out, "thou shalt rut randomly with whoever you please" and ended with "thou shalt worship any god you want to". Problem solved. Or, everyone would simply be incapable of doing things that are an abomination unto god (like they apparently will be configured in the new heaven anyway).

Or ... he could have wiped out Adam and Eve and given up the human experiment as a bad job.

But no. The ACTUAL situation that obtains is that roughly 95% of humans go to hell, year after year, even today (was probably worse in the past). Year after year.

How do I arrive at that figure?

By the most generous definition (culturally self-labeling Christians), 33% of the world is Christian, which is supposed to be the One True Religion.

About 17% of those are evangelicals who a fundamentalist MIGHT allow has the CORRECT doctrine.

17% of 33% is 5.6% of the world population. Allowing for a few false brethren in there, I figure 5% of humans are "saved", 95% not. And that's being generous.

So all this talk of god graciously waiting for the gospel to improve its penetration or reach or whatever, overlooks its utter failure up to now. All this talk of god "not being willing that any should perish" overlooks that he has been TOTALLY willing for MANY to perish YEAR AFTER YEAR.

It's all horseshit of the first order...
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13-02-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
(12-02-2017 10:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(11-02-2017 09:25 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Hmm... how many resident theists are there here?

Admittedly I've only just returned, but it feels like there is a lot less than I was used to at the previous forum. I'm not complaining, most of them were intolerable and I had them on ignore anyway. Just interested!



I'm a resident theist. Shai Hulud and Kingschosen are also in my camp.

I am one too. Syriac Orthodox Christian from India
(there's one denomination you've probably never come across)

Oh no. He's here - God
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13-02-2017, 03:41 PM
RE: Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
Like Aliza, I tend to identify more closely with atheists than I do fellow theists... probably because of my "liberal" views on theology and science.

Even now at my Calvinist church, I find it hard to not interrupt and correct people when their sentences began with "Most atheists say..." or "blah blah blah evolution is a lie..."

As for the counter argument to your OP, as it's been pointed out, there is a huge cultural difference between Muslims and Christians... not to say there isn't cherry picking, but the two can hardly be paralled in terms of acceptance of violence.

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14-02-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
(13-02-2017 12:51 PM)mordant Wrote:  This being could have made rules that were clear and able to be followed, and/or, could have made these beings fully capable of mindless obedience / devoid of free will so they would never offend his tender sensibilities.

Even admission that sin is a thing, is an admission that puny mortal humans have an effect on a supposedly transcendent being. To assert that this god is interested in what us insignificant mortals do and wants an individual relationship with each of us, brings it down to a silly level, that makes an alleged god rather small.

So the OT god needed a blood sacrifice of an animal to get him to not be mad at offenses done to him.

Then god V2.0 (New Testament) accepts a generic sacrifice from someone related to him as the ultimate sacrifice to appease his anger, but only makes it available to a small sect that represents a small minority of the world's population.

Damnation of the world- 100%
Salvation of the world- 5%
Nice system you set up there god. Facepalm

How can anyone see this as anything but a primitive man-made concept is beyond me.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-02-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
(14-02-2017 11:28 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Even admission that sin is a thing, is an admission that puny mortal humans have an effect on a supposedly transcendent being.
Yes, it is the height of arrogance to suggest that god is interested in where you put your tallywhacker or, indeed where you fantasize about putting it. It's also a bit bent that he seems more interested in that, than in what you eat for breakfast or perhaps how (un)kind you are to your spouse or something that would actually matter in making your contribution to the world better.
(14-02-2017 11:28 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  To assert that this god is interested in what us insignificant mortals do and wants an individual relationship with each of us, brings it down to a silly level, that makes an alleged god rather small.
A real god that actually intervened in human affairs is a god you would want to consider not attracting the attention of anyway. How do you know that this god is benevolent, consistent, and trustworthy? How do you know he gives a fig about you in a way that matters to you as a mere mortal?
(14-02-2017 11:28 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So the OT god needed a blood sacrifice of an animal to get him to not be mad at offenses done to him.

Then god V2.0 (New Testament) accepts a generic sacrifice from someone related to him as the ultimate sacrifice to appease his anger, but only makes it available to a small sect that represents a small minority of the world's population.

Damnation of the world- 100%
Salvation of the world- 5%
Nice system you set up there god. Facepalm

How can anyone see this as anything but a primitive man-made concept is beyond me.
Probably has something to do with being marinated in such notions from the cradle, and then, most of society at least outwardly going along with it and considering you weird for questioning it.

Just a wild guess.
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25-02-2017, 11:03 PM
RE: Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
Ruby Crystal Wrote:So why is everyone can name every Muslim terrorist group, but can claim christian terrorist groups are not 'real' Christians.
I don't know. May be because Muslim terrorists kill in the name of Allah and because it is their holly war against infidels?
Why do Christian terrorists kill?

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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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26-02-2017, 09:11 AM
RE: Something I've Noticed When Debating Theists
(25-02-2017 11:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Ruby Crystal Wrote:So why is everyone can name every Muslim terrorist group, but can claim christian terrorist groups are not 'real' Christians.
I don't know. May be because Muslim terrorists kill in the name of Allah and because it is their holly war against infidels?
Why do Christian terrorists kill?
The thing that makes Muslims easier to caricature is the middle-eastern garb and overtly different culture and religion and language (when it happens in the Islamic world) or the frightening covert nature of this alien ideology popping up in the West (when it happens in the West). When someone who both looks and generally believes like you and has a similar background does something evil, it makes more sense to say, well, he's not REALLY like me. It protects YOU and YOUR ideology. But when they are of an ALIEN religion, then it's easier to point at them and say, look how scary and evil and different that person was, we need to Do Something about this existential threat to OUR way of life.

So the only difference between a fundamentalist extremist bombing an abortion clinic or shooting an abortion doctor, and some guy born in Somalia doing it while shouting Allahu akbar, is the (dis)similarity to the dominant majority religion in the surrounding culture.

Of course that also prompts the Muslim to generally pick different targets, but in principle, a Muslim would be just as opposed to abortion. It just happens to not be a battle they pick. Sometimes I wish just once a Muslim would pick an abortion clinic to attack so we could watch the anti-abortion activists practically kill themselves not to publicly gloat over the Muslim being used as an instrument of god's judgment.
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