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12-01-2012, 04:09 PM
RE: Something funny
Just jump to the stuff about the flood.

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12-01-2012, 04:19 PM
RE: Something funny
(12-01-2012 04:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Just jump to the stuff about the flood.

Hmm... and a little, innocent germanyt shall lead him. Dodgy

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12-01-2012, 04:29 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2012 05:03 PM by germanyt.)
RE: Something funny
Quote:When "all" does not mean "all"
The flood passage uses many universal descriptions, which suggest global proportions. However, the universal text contradicts itself, if it is to be interpreted globally. For example, the Genesis text tells us that all flesh had become corrupted.12 However, the same passage tells us that Noah was a "righteous man, blameless in his time."13 It is clear from the text that "all flesh" did not actually refer to all flesh, since there was at least one exception.

Grasping for straws much? LMAO!
Quote:In reality, the Hebrew word ma‛al, translated "higher" really means "upward." So, in essence, the text is saying that the flood was 15 cubits (20 feet) deep, in total, not 15 cubits above the mountains. In addition, the Hebrew word har really refers most often to hills rather than mountains

20 feet? Really? A local 20 ft flood killed off all the cursed people of Mesopotamia? Even Katrina and the Thai tsunami couldn't pull that off.


brb, dying in 20ft of water with no sewage to contaminate it
brb, roof of my house wasn't good enough to chill on so I died
brb, couldnt' escape from a local flood with 40 days to get away

Man, in 40 days I could herd NYC through the Atchafalaya basin.


Another thing. In 40 days of floating around the ark never came to rest on anything? The draft of the ark had to be at lest 10 or 15 feet. A well built shed could have punctured the hull.
Quote:So he waited yet another seven days; and again he sent out the dove from the ark. And the dove came to him toward evening; and behold, in her beak was a freshly picked olive leaf. So Noah knew that the water was abated from the earth. (Genesis 8:10-11)

Go figure. 10 months under water and only 40 days after total destruction of the Earth/land/ground/area/whatever and doves are picking fresh olive leaves. I bet if I drained Lake Maurepas grass would start growing in less than 40 days. Rolleyes
Quote:Maybe God had good reasons for Noah to build the ark? God has a purpose for each person of faith to join Him in preaching His message. God's plan will be accomplished regardless of our participation in it. However, God gives obedient humans the privilege of participating in God's plans. Likewise, God had a plan for Noah, part of which was for him and his sons to demonstrate their commitment and perseverance to the Lord.

Doesnt' this kind of go against Calvinism? I'm not an expert on it. I mean, why the fuck would someone willingly participate in God's plan if they thought they would or could go to Hell anyway?
Quote:Those who get on God's ark (Jesus Christ) will be saved from the judgment and pass from death to eternal life.

Again. Doesn't really go along with Calvinism IMO. If one can make a choice that either condemns or saves him then a person cannot be destined for heaven or hell.

amirite?
Quote:What about the Genesis 9:11 and 9:15. If the flood was local, did God lie, since floods have destroyed local areas since the Genesis flood.

"And I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth." (Genesis 9:11)
and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:15)

The first part of the verse is a promise not to exercise universal judgment by means of a flood, "all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood." The flood, although local in extent, was global in judgment, since all humanity lived in the same locale. It wasn't until God confused the languages (Genesis 11) that people began to spread over the earth.


Really man? Really?
Quote:Why were birds on the ark?
If the Flood was local, why would birds have been sent on board? They could simply have flown to a nearby mountain range. Most birds (other than a few migratory birds) have a very localized territory. They would have been killed in the local flood, since they are not designed to fly long distances.

I know you just told me you don't necessarily agree with this answer but still. This writer is killing me.
I was hoping there was more but I'm done reading it. None of that made the story any more realistic or plausible.

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13-01-2012, 09:38 AM
RE: Something funny
You know... the one time I get lazy, you have to go all analytical on me... There are really only a few parts that I agree with but they are the main ones:

The Bible says water covered the whole earth... Really?

When you read an English translation of the biblical account of the flood, you will undoubtedly notice many words and verses that seem to suggest that the waters covered all of planet earth.3 However, one should note that today we look at everything from a global perspective, whereas the Bible nearly always refers to local geography. You may not be able to determine this fact from our English translations, so we will look at the original Hebrew, which is the word of God. The Hebrew words which are translated as "whole earth" or "all the earth" are kol (Strong's number H3605), which means "all," and erets (Strong's number H776), which means "earth," "land," "country," or "ground."4 We don't need to look very far in Genesis (Genesis 2) before we find the Hebrew words kol erets.

The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole [kol] land [erets] of Havilah, where there is gold. (Genesis 2:11)
And the name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole [kol] land [erets] of Cush. (Genesis 2:13)

Obviously, the description of kol erets is modified by the name of the land, indicating a local area from the context. In fact, the term kol erets is nearly always used in the Old Testament to describe a local area of land, instead of our entire planet.5
The "whole earth" often refers to the people not geography

However, there are many more examples of where kol erets is used without reference to any specific land, although the context clearly indicates a local area. For example, in Genesis 11 (the Tower of Babel) the text says, "the whole [kol] earth [erets] used the same language."6 We know that this reference is not really to the earth at all (and certainly not to the "whole earth"), but to the people of the earth, who all lived in one geographic location. It wasn't until later that God scattered the people over the face of the earth.6 There are many other examples of where kol erets actually refers to people rather than the geography of the "whole earth":

Shall not the Judge of all [kol] the earth [erets] deal justly?" (Genesis 18:25) (God judges the people of the earth, not the earth itself)
Now behold, today I am going the way of all [kol] the earth [erets], and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed. (Joshua 23:14) (Joshua was going the way of all people in the earth, whose ultimate destiny is death.)
And all [kol] the people of the land [erets] entered the forest, and there was honey on the ground. (1 Samuel 14:25) (The words "the people of" are added to the English, since they are not found in the Hebrew. The actual translation would be "all the land entered the forest," obviously referring to the people and not to the land itself moving into the forest.)
While all [kol] the country [erets] was weeping with a loud voice, all the people passed over. (2 Samuel 15:23) (Obviously, the earth cannot weep with a loud voice.)
"I am going the way of all [kol] the earth [erets]. Be strong, therefore, and show yourself a man. (1 Kings 2:2) (David was going the way of all people in the earth, whose ultimate destiny is death.)
He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all [kol] the earth [erets]. (1 Chronicles 16:14) (Judgments are done against people, not the planet)
Sing to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]; Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day. (1 Chronicles 16:23) (The people sing, not the planet)
Tremble before Him, all [kol] the earth [erets]; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved. (1 Chronicles 16:30) (This does not refer to earthquakes!)
Let all [kol] the earth [erets] fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. (Psalm 33:8) (People, not planets, fear the Lord)
For the choir director. A Song. A Psalm.) Shout joyfully to God, all the earth; (Psalm 66:1) (People shout, not the earth)
"All the earth will worship Thee, And will sing praises to Thee; They will sing praises to Thy name." Selah. (Psalm 66:4) (People worship, not the earth)
Sing to the LORD a new song; Sing to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 96:1) (People sing, not the earth)
Worship the LORD in holy attire; Tremble before Him, all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 96:9) (People worship, not the earth)
Shout joyfully to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]; Break forth and sing for joy and sing praises. (Psalm 98:4) (People shout, not the earth)
(A Psalm for Thanksgiving.) Shout joyfully to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 100:1) (People shout, not the earth)
He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 105:7) (Judgments are done against people, not the planet)
"The whole [kol] earth [erets] is at rest and is quiet; They break forth into shouts of joy. (Isaiah 14:7) (People shout, not the earth)

The "whole earth" usually refers to local geography

Examples of where kol erets refers to a local area include the following verses:

"Is not the whole [kol] land [erets] before you? Please separate from me: if to the left, then I will go to the right; or if to the right, then I will go to the left." (Genesis 13:9) (The "whole land" was only the land of Canaan)
And the people of all [kol] the earth [erets] came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth. (Genesis 41:57) (The people from the Americas did not go to Egypt)
Then God said, "Behold, I am going to make a covenant. Before all your people I will perform miracles which have not been produced in all [kol] the earth [erets], nor among any of the nations; and all the people among whom you live will see the working of the LORD, for it is a fearful thing that I am going to perform with you. (Exodus 34:10) (There would be no need to add "nor among any of the nations" if "all the earth" referred to the entire planet.)
'You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all [kol] through your land [erets]. (Leviticus 25:9) (The Hebrews were not required to sound a horn throughout the entire earth)
'Thus for every [kol] piece [erets] of your property, you are to provide for the redemption of the land. (Leviticus 25:24) (The law does not apply only to those who own the entire earth)
behold, I will put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor. If there is dew on the fleece only, and it is dry on all [kol] the ground [erets], then I will know that Thou wilt deliver Israel through me, as Thou hast spoken." (Judges 6:37, see also 6:39-40) (kol erets could not refer to the entire earth, since it would not be possible for Gideon to check the entire earth)
And Jonathan smote the garrison of the Philistines that was in Geba, and the Philistines heard of it. Then Saul blew the trumpet throughout [kol] the land [erets], saying, "Let the Hebrews hear." (1 Samuel 13:3) (Obviously, Saul could not have blown a trumpet loud enough to be heard throughout the entire earth)
For the battle there was spread over the whole [kol] countryside [erets], and the forest devoured more people that day than the sword devoured. (2 Samuel 18:8) (No, the battle did not take place over the entire earth.)
So when they had gone about through the whole [kol] land [erets], they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. (2 Samuel 24:8) (No they didn't go through the entire earth, just the lands of Palestine.)
And all [kol] the earth [erets] was seeking the presence of Solomon, to hear his wisdom which God had put in his heart. (1 Kings 10:24) (It is unlikely that the Native Americans went to see Solomon.)
Then the fame of David went out into all [kol] the lands [erets]; and the LORD brought the fear of him on all the nations. (1 Chronicles 14:17) (It is unlikely that the Native Americans knew about David.)
And David said, "My son Solomon is young and inexperienced, and the house that is to be built for the LORD shall be exceedingly magnificent, famous and glorious throughout all [kol] lands [erets]. (1 Chronicles 22:5) (The temple was famous to all the lands in the Middle East, but was destroyed before the advent of globalism.)
And they were bringing horses for Solomon from Egypt and from all [kol] countries [erets]. (2 Chronicles 9:28) (It is unlikely that the Chinese brought horses to Solomon)
Many more examples8

As can be seen above, in the majority of instances kol erets does not refer to the entire planet earth. In fact, of the 205 instance of kol erets in the Old Testament, it might refer to the entire planet just 40 times,9 and even some of those are questionable. About half of those instance occur in the books of Psalms and Isaiah. The Genesis flood narrative also uses the phrase "the face of the earth." This is the exact phrase used by Cain when he was banished by God (Genesis 4:14). Are we to think that Cain was banished to outer space? In addition, the flood narrative says that "the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth" (Genesis 7:17). If "earth" really refers to the planet, this text would imply that the ark somehow levitated above the planet. Obviously, "earth" refers to the local land on which the ark was sitting, and not to planet earth.
How could the text have more clearly indicated a global flood?

I am glad you asked! There is a Hebrew word that always refers to the entire earth or the entire inhabited earth. The word is tebel (Strong's H8398), which is found 37 times in the Old Testament. Curiously, this word is never used to describe the flood, although it is used extensively to describe the creation of the earth and the judgment of the peoples of the earth.
The Local Flood - from the Genesis text
Erets revisited

Let's look at the actual Genesis flood passage to determine if it can be interpreted from a local viewpoint. As we determined above, the word erets, often translated "earth" can also refer to the people of the earth. Is it used this way in the actual Genesis flood passage?

Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. (Genesis 6:11)
And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. (Genesis 6:12)
I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. (Genesis 9:13)

Genesis 6, verses 11 and 12 both tells us that the earth was corrupt, although we understand this verse to refer to the people of the earth. Likewise, in Genesis 9:13, the verse tells us that God made a covenant between Himself and the earth. However, later verses clarify that the covenant is between God and the creatures of the earth.10 The Genesis text clearly establishes (along with the New Testament11) that God's judgment of humans was universal (with the exception of Noah and his family).

Outside Genesis one (through Genesis 2:5), the entire Genesis account through the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11) specifically refers to local geography. All the place names mentioned are in the Mesopotamian flood plain. Therefore, all the instances of the word erets can and should be translated "land," instead of "earth," since it all refers to local geography. There is no reason to think that the flood account is any different from the rest of the Genesis account through chapter 11.

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13-01-2012, 09:56 AM
RE: Something funny
(12-01-2012 04:09 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Well I'm 3 paragraphs in and already not accepting it. Wasn't Psalms written like 400 years after Genesis was written? And like 2000 years after the flood happened?

Watch out for KC, germanyt. He's a well known huckster. Any old argument he'll try to psalm off as real Tongue
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13-01-2012, 09:58 AM
RE: Something funny
(13-01-2012 09:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(12-01-2012 04:09 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Well I'm 3 paragraphs in and already not accepting it. Wasn't Psalms written like 400 years after Genesis was written? And like 2000 years after the flood happened?

Watch out for KC, germanyt. He's a well known huckster. Any old argument he'll try to psalm off as real Tongue

Heh, you forget that he is the only one here that really knows me.

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13-01-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Something funny
(13-01-2012 09:58 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Heh, you forget that he is the only one here that really knows me.

I know. Just... never know when I'll get the opportunity to make a lousy pun like that. You'se gotta take what you can get...
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13-01-2012, 10:14 AM
RE: Something funny
(13-01-2012 10:09 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-01-2012 09:58 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Heh, you forget that he is the only one here that really knows me.

I know. Just... never know when I'll get the opportunity to make a lousy pun like that. You'se gotta take what you can get...

lol I'll give you that.

I should have just linked the rimshot.

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15-01-2012, 06:28 PM
RE: Something funny
I just have a quick question(s) regarding the Noah's Ark story...

How did God kill the sea creatures by a flood? If anything, he just gave them more room to live... He drowned fish? Also - what about the salt-water fish and the fresh-water fish? How'd Noah get those onto the Ark so that the water was sectioned off for each habitat? How'd he account for the food chain? Surely the owl would totally dominate all the mice?

"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan
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16-01-2012, 08:27 AM
RE: Something funny
(15-01-2012 06:28 PM)Alaskan Atheist Wrote:  I just have a quick question(s) regarding the Noah's Ark story...

How did God kill the sea creatures by a flood? If anything, he just gave them more room to live... He drowned fish? Also - what about the salt-water fish and the fresh-water fish? How'd Noah get those onto the Ark so that the water was sectioned off for each habitat? How'd he account for the food chain? Surely the owl would totally dominate all the mice?

Fish weren't on the ark. Brackish water (via the flood) would kill both saltwater and freshwater fish. However, this would present a problem with the conclusion of a world-wide flood; which is why I think it was local.

The assumption is that God closed the mouths of the predators on the ark like He did in Daniel.

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