Something puzzling
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09-01-2013, 02:00 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(09-01-2013 01:53 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(08-01-2013 10:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Down in the Boxing Ring thread with KC, he said something rather firmly that god knows everything. If that's true, then did god also make atheists? Are we in a spiritual purgatory? Or were we created to test the faith of Christians?

I just find this a bit confusing.
Of all the things to find confusing, you pick THAT?

Here's a better one. Why would an omniscient God seek to test people at all?

Lol - ya i know... Smile But...
That question goes along with it...really it would be next on the great list -- depending on the answer to the first question..

Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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09-01-2013, 02:20 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(09-01-2013 11:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 08:47 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I'm not really sure what the condition of humans are when we spawn. It seems to me like it is built in our nature to rebel against God but I'm only semi-certain on that.
Spawn? Really?

Wow, I didn't even notice I said that LOL
I've been playing way too much Call of Duty Hobo

(09-01-2013 11:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  How is it built in to our nature to rebel against the non-existent? A child (or demon-spawn) has no knowledge of any gods, so how could it rebel?

This is the kind of thing I can't respond to, there is no response.
I'm wondering if there's maybe a pattern I can pick up somehow.

I notice that some Atheists will say things like you do "How is it built in to our nature to rebel against the non-existent?"
And then some will not assert the non-existence of God but simply that there isn't enough evidence to support such existence and so on.

As for the former, I'm wondering if the pattern is that they are the less-likely to have a coherent conversation/discussion/debate with a Theist.

I already know that the demeanor of the latter is usually that of a growing knowledge and an open mind.

Maybe I'm catching on to a pattern, maybe not..

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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09-01-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(09-01-2013 01:36 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 06:32 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Sometimes you guys aren't very consistent. That or you just aren't specifying.

Many of you have recently said that we are all born Atheists.

I think my stance was that we are all born Apatheists which is a type of Atheist. Basically, we are all born without having made a choice - then throughout life we make choices and believe different things.

So I don't think God creates the person distinctly as an Atheist. It seems more reasonable to say that He just gave every person the choice to do as they wish.
Not to sidetrack the thread, but I couldn't let this go. Each person logically must be born a theist or an atheist. They either have a belief in a god (theist) or they don't have a belief in a god (atheist). I would argue it's the latter due to their not having any concept of a god at all yet and they therefore can't be an apatheist either. You can't not care about something you don't even know about at all.
Basically, infants are implicit Atheists whereas most Atheists after being introduced to the ideas of Theism become explicit Atheists once they have consciously rejected Theism.
In my understanding, explicit Atheists have basically took a stance against Theism with reasoning and logic.
That reasoning and logic turns into arguments against Gods existence which then is used during debates and discussions.

So far, it looks like we eventually decide for or against the idea of Theism.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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09-01-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(09-01-2013 02:20 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 11:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  Spawn? Really?

Wow, I didn't even notice I said that LOL
I've been playing way too much Call of Duty Hobo

(09-01-2013 11:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  How is it built in to our nature to rebel against the non-existent? A child (or demon-spawn) has no knowledge of any gods, so how could it rebel?

This is the kind of thing I can't respond to, there is no response.
I'm wondering if there's maybe a pattern I can pick up somehow.

I notice that some Atheists will say things like you do "How is it built in to our nature to rebel against the non-existent?"
And then some will not assert the non-existence of God but simply that there isn't enough evidence to support such existence and so on.

As for the former, I'm wondering if the pattern is that they are the less-likely to have a coherent conversation/discussion/debate with a Theist.

I already know that the demeanor of the latter is usually that of a growing knowledge and an open mind.

Maybe I'm catching on to a pattern, maybe not..


A person without any belief in God can not rebel against God.
The pattern here is that we are confronting your nonsensical rationalizations for belief with logic.

Saying that someone without belief is somehow rebelling is just silly.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-01-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(09-01-2013 02:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  We are confronting your nonsensical rationalizations for belief with logic.

I constantly do the same thing to my own beliefs along with any other truth claim - I just come up with different results than you.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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09-01-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(09-01-2013 02:43 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 02:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  We are confronting your nonsensical rationalizations for belief with logic.
I constantly do the same thing to my own beliefs along with any other truth claim - I just enjoy the mental gymnastics of making mine fit.

Consider
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09-01-2013, 02:47 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(09-01-2013 02:45 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 02:43 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I constantly do the same thing to my own beliefs along with any other truth claim - I just enjoy the mental gymnastics of making mine fit.

Consider
mmk

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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11-01-2013, 04:27 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(08-01-2013 10:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Down in the Boxing Ring thread with KC, he said something rather firmly that god knows everything. If that's true, then did god also make atheists? Are we in a spiritual purgatory? Or were we created to test the faith of Christians?

I just find this a bit confusing.
1) Yes, He made atheists.
2) If you are not chosen for salvation, then you are damned.
3) Anyone can have a regeneration at any time, that's why I never say that anyone is damned... I simply don't know.
4) The damned exists because of a result of sin - a cause and an effect.
5) Sin exists for Christ's purpose to be fulfilled.




....

dangit y'all.... quit sucking me back in to theological debates.

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11-01-2013, 04:37 PM
RE: Something puzzling
1 I ask'd the Lord, that I might grow
In faith, and love, and ev'ry grace,
Might more of his salvation know,
And seek more earnestly his face.

2 'Twas he who taught me thus to pray,
And he, I trust has answer'd pray'r;
But it has been in such a way,
As almost drove me to despair.

3 I hop'd that in some favour'd hour,
At once he'd answer my request:
And by his love's constraining pow'r,
Subdue my sins, and give me rest.

4 Instead of this. he made me feel
The hidden evils of my heart;
And let the angry pow'rs of hell
Assault my soul in ev'ry part.

5 Yea more, with his own hand he seem'd
Intent to aggravate my woe;
Cross'd all the fair designs I schem'd,
Blasted my gourds, and laid me low.

6 Lord, why is this, I trembling cry'd,
Wilt thou pursue thy worm to death?
"'Tis in this way," the Lord reply'd,
"I answer pray'r for grace and faith.

Oh, KC...

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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11-01-2013, 04:41 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(11-01-2013 04:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(08-01-2013 10:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Down in the Boxing Ring thread with KC, he said something rather firmly that god knows everything. If that's true, then did god also make atheists? Are we in a spiritual purgatory? Or were we created to test the faith of Christians?

I just find this a bit confusing.
1) Yes, He made atheists.
2) If you are not chosen for salvation, then you are damned.
3) Anyone can have a regeneration at any time, that's why I never say that anyone is damned... I simply don't know.
4) The damned exists because of a result of sin - a cause and an effect.
5) Sin exists for Christ's purpose to be fulfilled.




....

dangit y'all.... quit sucking me back in to theological debates.

I'm sorry about that (dragging you into theological debates) -- I'm not really debating, just asking questions I'm curious about (really I am just curious). But if god made me an atheist, I can still be "chosen" even tho I don't believe? Or did he make me atheist and I'm damned just because he felt that way? Why would god bother making people who don't believe in him? I'm not really talking about Muslims, Hindu, et al, other religions but specifically those of us who do not believe in god or the idea of 'god' is a....well....fairy tale, mythology or whatever you want to call it.

Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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