Something puzzling
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11-01-2013, 04:42 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(11-01-2013 04:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(08-01-2013 10:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Down in the Boxing Ring thread with KC, he said something rather firmly that god knows everything. If that's true, then did god also make atheists? Are we in a spiritual purgatory? Or were we created to test the faith of Christians?

I just find this a bit confusing.
1) Yes, He made atheists.
2) If you are not chosen for salvation, then you are damned.
3) Anyone can have a regeneration at any time, that's why I never say that anyone is damned... I simply don't know.
4) The damned exists because of a result of sin - a cause and an effect.
5) Sin exists for Christ's purpose to be fulfilled.




....

dangit y'all.... quit sucking me back in to theological debates.


No one's debating ya', Kingsy. No

We just love to hear you say that crazy, circular argument - comedy gold! Yes

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-01-2013, 04:42 PM
RE: Something puzzling
Yeah, but what caused sin?

God did. He created the temptation, he knew (omniscience) exactly what would happen but he created it anyway. Therefore he created sin. God created us. He knew which of us will burn before he created us. We burn for his sin that he created. He created us specifically to be damned and to burn.

Christ's purpose to be fulfilled? Wouldn't even need a purpose if god didn't create the sin and force it upon us in the first place.

But he didn't give Christ to us all. Only to a few. He could have had Christ come to every village, town, and city in every land of every continent. He could have had Christ reveal himself explicitly to every human everywhere. Instead, he chose one little town in one dusty corner of the world, and then buried the one and only tale of this even under a mountain of contradictory evidence and alternative theology. Deliberately obfuscating our salvation. All the while knowing (omniscient) which few would be save and which many will burn from this deliberate obfuscation.

I'd rather worship Hannibal Lechter; he's more likely to have my best interest at heart.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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11-01-2013, 07:38 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(08-01-2013 10:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Down in the Boxing Ring thread with KC, he said something rather firmly that god knows everything. If that's true, then did god also make atheists? Are we in a spiritual purgatory? Or were we created to test the faith of Christians?

I just find this a bit confusing.
If we are created to test their faith, then that means we have a free pass into heaven right?
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11-01-2013, 09:09 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(11-01-2013 04:41 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 04:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  1) Yes, He made atheists.
2) If you are not chosen for salvation, then you are damned.
3) Anyone can have a regeneration at any time, that's why I never say that anyone is damned... I simply don't know.
4) The damned exists because of a result of sin - a cause and an effect.
5) Sin exists for Christ's purpose to be fulfilled.




....

dangit y'all.... quit sucking me back in to theological debates.

I'm sorry about that (dragging you into theological debates) -- I'm not really debating, just asking questions I'm curious about (really I am just curious). But if god made me an atheist, I can still be "chosen" even tho I don't believe? Or did he make me atheist and I'm damned just because he felt that way? Why would god bother making people who don't believe in him? I'm not really talking about Muslims, Hindu, et al, other religions but specifically those of us who do not believe in god or the idea of 'god' is a....well....fairy tale, mythology or whatever you want to call it.
On the one hand, this question isn't directed at me, I don't have the theological expertise to answer it, and any answer I would give in error could blatantly mischaracterize the beliefs of millions.

On the other hand, this is the internet, so all that's par for the course. (But seriously, read KC's eventual answer, not mine.)

If I understand the Calvinist interpretation correctly (and I'm not entirely sure that I do), then in it everything is predestined, in that God knows how it's going to all play out and likely planned it out that way. In that sense, certain people are predestined (chosen or elect) for salvation. HOWEVER, mere mortals don't actually get to know that plan, or who is destined to be saved. (At least, not before death.) (Of course, many churches like to breezily assure their membership that THEY are saved and THEY are the elect, but that sort of certitude has little grounding in the theology.) Within the framework of the plan, choices do have significance. Someone can choose to convert, repent of sin (though not avoid it entirely, because it's part of human nature), accept Christ, and be saved. This doesn't "change" anything about the plan, though, because that choice to convert was all part of the plan right from the word... well, Word.

The Calvinist notion of free will versus predestination is.... well, imagine that you've got a magic video camera that records everything. I mean EVERYTHING, down to the position and velocity of every last particle, and more significantly (regarding salvation) the choices that you make. Now lets say you rewind this recording of the universe (or just the universe) and play it forward again. Do you have a choice in the second play-through? Of course not, any more than a video will change from one play-through to the next. (It's a magic video, so let's ignore things like tape degradation.) In that case, did you have a choice the first time around? Maybe, maybe not, it's a matter of interpretation, but it's deterministic and if you do have a choice, it's utterly predictable to Someone who's intelligent enough. God knows what the future's going to be, just like someone who's watched a video before. People in the video can't change how it plays out. God could, but has decided what path things will progress along and committed the video to that path.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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11-01-2013, 09:27 PM
RE: Something puzzling
(08-01-2013 10:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Down in the Boxing Ring thread with KC, he said something rather firmly that god knows everything. If that's true, then did god also make atheists? Are we in a spiritual purgatory? Or were we created to test the faith of Christians?

I just find this a bit confusing.
Ah, KC theology. To hear him tell it is the best, but I'll have a shot at explaining it, may I?

God made us atheists, planned it since god existed (likely before time or anything else somehow) he did. Gawd planned for everything, otherwise he wouldn't be all knowing. God made us atheists, because he made us so, because he made us so, and don't question it, it slides down the gullet better if you don't. (Even though there is no rhyme nor reason, so especially don't question it!)

A single action is worth more than the words it takes to describe it.
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11-01-2013, 11:55 PM
RE: Something puzzling
One has to wonder, if God did exists, why create anything? A perfect being wouldn't have any deficiencies, wouldn't need anything at all. He/she/it wouldn't need companionship or ever get bored. So why in the hell did God even create anything beside him/her/itself? God certainly didn't create us for our own benefit.

We're all just cosmic window dressing...


"Perhaps this is just how apes worry, when they learn to worry with words." - Sam Harris

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