"Something was created from nothing"
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31-07-2014, 08:31 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(31-07-2014 05:41 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  So mankind and the material universe can't be created out of nothing but God can always have been with no beginning......which one is more far fetched?

They're equally preposterous. "Created" is an action verb. It assumes spacetime already in place. "Always have been with no beginning" is also a temporal concept, which assumes spacetime. "Have been" regardless of the "beginning" still presumes time.

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31-07-2014, 08:44 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUe0_4rdj0U

Just gonna leave this one here too.


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31-07-2014, 08:46 PM
Re: RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(31-07-2014 11:09 AM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  
(31-07-2014 11:06 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  There was NEVER nothing.

Can you explain this in layman's terms. Are you speaking from the point of view of a Buddhist: the universe always was and always will be; it never started (no big bang) and never will end. OR are you talking big bang. I'll have to research some big bang documentaries and learn a little bit more about it I guess

Others have given the proper science links, but I think there's also a simple logical way to understand why the nothing concept is flawed.

What's anyones testable example of nothing? Where is it?.. It does not exist. In our time we have no example of nothing. We have not been able to test nothing. So any logical absolute negating claim made about nothing is invalid. It's simply an unfounded assertion.

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01-08-2014, 07:30 AM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(31-07-2014 11:35 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Correct. However, note my wording, because it is careful: Time is also a function of space. What I said was, there never was a "time" that mass-energy did not exist. There is no such thing as "before the Big Bang." A difficult concept to grasp for a mind as finite as mine, but it is what science teaches. Beyond that, we're above my pay grade. Wink

This is basically what I was going to say. And while a theist may think this sounds like a handwavy way to solve the problem... they totally invoke God to do the same thing.
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04-08-2014, 09:23 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
In other words, there was never nothing.

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04-08-2014, 11:06 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
Something that I have been thinking about lately is how the humane understanding of time, and the time dimension which can be manipulated by velocity and gravity, are not exactly the same thing. The humane quantity "time" is an objective measure of a count of some time keeping event. For example, we count seconds, which is how long it takes for a clock's second hand to increment about the face.

By contrast, when scientists tell us that as you approach the speed of light, time slows down, what this means is that the motion internal to a system slows down. This isn't a measure of "time", meaning how many seconds and minutes have passed, but of relative motion, meaning how fast things appear to someone traveling at one speed, or in the presence of some gravity, as compared to another.

This means that if it were possible to have a clock existing outside space/time, some objective clock with constant relative motion, that it would be possible to set the clock before the beginning of the universe. There would definitely be a "when" then, or a moment when the universe "began" and moments before it began. "Time" as we generally understand it, didn't begin when the universe began, merely the "space/time", which is dimensions by which objects move, began. I think that is an important difference.
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04-08-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(04-08-2014 09:23 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  In other words, there was never nothing.

I am a firm believer that no matter how illogical it is or what steven hawking tries to make it sound like.

Nothing actually IS something. Even if it is the most absolute perfect nothing that ever could be. That nothing has a location in which something can happen inside of itself. Even if that location is nowhere at all.

Plus, it just makes sense. Something came from it, Came from nothing. Everything came from nothing....somehow...and in order for that to happen it needs a location (even if the location is nowhere) to start.

then again, I am not sure we actually quite understand what nothing actually IS!
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Infinite still just a concept? We have no real definition or I should rather say, a real understanding of what exactly infinite truly entails. Since everything we know,can know, will know, could know is finite in our current understanding. We have no real true way of knowing it perfectly.


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04-08-2014, 11:23 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(04-08-2014 11:06 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Something that I have been thinking about lately is how the humane understanding of time, and the time dimension which can be manipulated by velocity and gravity, are not exactly the same thing. The humane quantity "time" is an objective measure of a count of some time keeping event. For example, we count seconds, which is how long it takes for a clock's second hand to increment about the face.

By contrast, when scientists tell us that as you approach the speed of light, time slows down, what this means is that the motion internal to a system slows down. This isn't a measure of "time", meaning how many seconds and minutes have passed, but of relative motion, meaning how fast things appear to someone traveling at one speed, or in the presence of some gravity, as compared to another.

This means that if it were possible to have a clock existing outside space/time, some objective clock with constant relative motion, that it would be possible to set the clock before the beginning of the universe. There would definitely be a "when" then, or a moment when the universe "began" and moments before it began. "Time" as we generally understand it, didn't begin when the universe began, merely the "space/time", which is dimensions by which objects move, began. I think that is an important difference.

But we can posit and observe time-reversible constant-entropy interactions without our universe, and we analogise our universe as existing in a similar state within a greater manifold.

Time as we know it only exists within spacetime, and so far as we can tell that's a wholly contingent phenomenon.

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04-08-2014, 11:27 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(04-08-2014 11:11 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 09:23 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  In other words, there was never nothing.

I am a firm believer that no matter how illogical it is or what steven hawking tries to make it sound like.

Nothing actually IS something. Even if it is the most absolute perfect nothing that ever could be. That nothing has a location in which something can happen inside of itself. Even if that location is nowhere at all.

But that's incoherent.

(04-08-2014 11:11 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Plus, it just makes sense.

DANGER DANGER DANGER.

Naive intuition is not very helpful in understanding physical conditions beyond those in which our intuition developed...

(04-08-2014 11:11 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Something came from it, Came from nothing. Everything came from nothing....somehow...and in order for that to happen it needs a location (even if the location is nowhere) to start.

Not... so much. Though, I'm not quite clear on what you're saying...

For something to happen, the framework for things to happen must be present. That means the universal fields. If the framework exists, all else is probabilistic.

(04-08-2014 11:11 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  then again, I am not sure we actually quite understand what nothing actually IS!
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Infinite still just a concept? We have no real definition or I should rather say, a real understanding of what exactly infinite truly entails. Since everything we know,can know, will know, could know is finite in our current understanding. We have no real true way of knowing it perfectly.

We have an extremely comprehensive mathematical understanding of infinities, and their use in physical theories is a powerful tool.

Do they exist? Well, does anything? What do you mean by "exist"?

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04-08-2014, 11:38 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(04-08-2014 11:23 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 11:06 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Something that I have been thinking about lately is how the humane understanding of time, and the time dimension which can be manipulated by velocity and gravity, are not exactly the same thing. The humane quantity "time" is an objective measure of a count of some time keeping event. For example, we count seconds, which is how long it takes for a clock's second hand to increment about the face.

By contrast, when scientists tell us that as you approach the speed of light, time slows down, what this means is that the motion internal to a system slows down. This isn't a measure of "time", meaning how many seconds and minutes have passed, but of relative motion, meaning how fast things appear to someone traveling at one speed, or in the presence of some gravity, as compared to another.

This means that if it were possible to have a clock existing outside space/time, some objective clock with constant relative motion, that it would be possible to set the clock before the beginning of the universe. There would definitely be a "when" then, or a moment when the universe "began" and moments before it began. "Time" as we generally understand it, didn't begin when the universe began, merely the "space/time", which is dimensions by which objects move, began. I think that is an important difference.

But we can posit and observe time-reversible constant-entropy interactions without our universe, and we analogise our universe as existing in a similar state within a greater manifold.

Time as we know it only exists within spacetime, and so far as we can tell that's a wholly contingent phenomenon.

I have no idea what that means Confused
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