"Something was created from nothing"
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05-08-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(31-07-2014 10:47 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  There was never "nothing."

Um actually there are competing scientific theories in lagit science that are pointing either way. Multiverse is one and even depicted on COSMOS like bubbles in a bubble bath.

I hate the something vs nothing argument when it forgets the most important fact "A god is not required" Stephen Hawkins.

QM has not figured out what is behind the background radiation that we know of right now. The only current fact we do know is that all the material in the universe we see now was in an extremely tiny dense spot.

QM is freaky enough by itself and we will gain more knowledge to some degree in the future. But a magical cognition will not be the "cause".

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05-08-2014, 11:06 AM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(04-08-2014 11:38 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 11:23 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But we can posit and observe time-reversible constant-entropy interactions without our universe, and we analogise our universe as existing in a similar state within a greater manifold.

Time as we know it only exists within spacetime, and so far as we can tell that's a wholly contingent phenomenon.

I have no idea what that means Confused

It means that there are two separate but closely related phenomena we call "time".

There is causal separation, which is the spacetime interval between connected observable interactions, and there is direction, which is considered in terms of net entropy.

We observe vacuum fluctuations within our universe, and they appear time-reversible from out point of view (to simplify, neither the 'forward' nor ' backward' representation may be privileged).

It is possible, and seems plausible, that our universe as a whole is a net zero-energy closed fluctuation.

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05-08-2014, 11:19 AM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
Freaky fact about electrons I learned about on COSMOS is that they jump orbits. Neil Described it like an elevator going up or down and skipping floors.

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05-08-2014, 11:27 AM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(05-08-2014 11:19 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Freaky fact about electrons I learned about on COSMOS is that they jump orbits. Neil Described it like an elevator going up or down and skipping floors.

Sure; their properties are quantised (hence: quantum mechanics).

Classical mechanics assumes all properties are continuous, but to be discretely quantised means that on a fine scale, there are only certain solutions to the equations of state. An electron's basis states are discrete, exact states, and it simply cannot physically exist at different levels (it can exist at different floors, but it cannot exist between floors).

Although it can of course exist in a superposition of levels such that its average or expectation state is any arbitrary value...

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05-08-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(31-07-2014 11:06 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  There was NEVER nothing.

Cause even...."nothing".....is something.

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05-08-2014, 01:09 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(05-08-2014 11:06 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 11:38 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I have no idea what that means Confused

It means that there are two separate but closely related phenomena we call "time".

There is causal separation, which is the spacetime interval between connected observable interactions, and there is direction, which is considered in terms of net entropy.

I don't understand. Don't "connected observable interactions" lead to entropy? How could entropy accelerate faster or slower than the interactions of objects and particles?

Quote:We observe vacuum fluctuations within our universe, and they appear time-reversible from out point of view (to simplify, neither the 'forward' nor ' backward' representation may be privileged).

This is my understanding of what a vacuum fluctuation is; essentially two particles, a matter particle and an anti-matter particle, nearly instantaneously come into existence and then annihilate each other. If I am understanding you then, the annihilation part, and the popping into existence part, don't happen in a particular order; that they are interchangeable. I am reminded of the "chicken and the egg" problem.

I don't understand its implications. What does this imply about time?

Quote:It is possible, and seems plausible, that our universe as a whole is a net zero-energy closed fluctuation.

Right, because gravity (negative energy) and matter (positive energy) cancel eachother out, and vacuum fluctuations annihilate each other leaving zero net total energy.
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05-08-2014, 01:10 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(05-08-2014 11:29 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(31-07-2014 11:06 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  There was NEVER nothing.

Cause even...."nothing".....is something.
I'm pretty sure that logic doesn't follow, but I'm too lost in the creativity of your remark to care. Tongue

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05-08-2014, 01:21 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(05-08-2014 01:10 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 11:29 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Cause even...."nothing".....is something.
I'm pretty sure that logic doesn't follow, but I'm too lost in the creativity of your remark to care. Tongue


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05-08-2014, 01:32 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(05-08-2014 11:27 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 11:19 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Freaky fact about electrons I learned about on COSMOS is that they jump orbits. Neil Described it like an elevator going up or down and skipping floors.

Sure; their properties are quantised (hence: quantum mechanics).

Classical mechanics assumes all properties are continuous, but to be discretely quantised means that on a fine scale, there are only certain solutions to the equations of state. An electron's basis states are discrete, exact states, and it simply cannot physically exist at different levels (it can exist at different floors, but it cannot exist between floors).

Although it can of course exist in a superposition of levels such that its average or expectation state is any arbitrary value...
The position of an electron is based on its probability function, not based on the path being unobscured. The probability is a wave function which goes from positive to negative and has nodes on the 0, These zeros give us zero probability that the electron will be at that position. But this doesn't stop the electron from going from the positive to the negative it just skips the zero position.
Also of course, energy is quantised so certain states are impossible.

Because electrons don't traverse a continuous path then this allows them to "go through" barriers that would otherwise be impossible for them to go through. This is called quantum tunnelling. Without this, Stars would not shine.
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05-08-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: "Something was created from nothing"
(05-08-2014 01:09 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 11:06 AM)cjlr Wrote:  It means that there are two separate but closely related phenomena we call "time".

There is causal separation, which is the spacetime interval between connected observable interactions, and there is direction, which is considered in terms of net entropy.

I don't understand. Don't "connected observable interactions" lead to entropy? How could entropy accelerate faster or slower than the interactions of objects and particles?

Not all interactions require an increase in entropy. The laws of thermodynamics only say that net entropy change is greater than or equal to zero. There are many interactions which - in isolation, that's the tricky part - do not exhibit a change in entropy (trivial example: an elastic collision in a vacuum).

We can actually perform nearly entropy-neutral processes, but to that's only by "isolating" a system via an outside energy input (ie thermal and electrodynamic shielding - but we can't block gravity). So in our experience isentropic analysis is a theoretical convenience.

(05-08-2014 01:09 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
Quote:We observe vacuum fluctuations within our universe, and they appear time-reversible from out point of view (to simplify, neither the 'forward' nor ' backward' representation may be privileged).

This is my understanding of what a vacuum fluctuation is; essentially two particles, a matter particle and an anti-matter particle, nearly instantaneously come into existence and then annihilate each other. If I am understanding you then, the annihilation part, and the popping into existence part, don't happen in a particular order; that they are interchangeable. I am reminded of the "chicken and the egg" problem.

I don't understand its implications. What does this imply about time?

It implies that time is an emergent (and contingent) phenomenon.
(see here)

They happen in a particular order from our observation because they are happening within the same spacetime framework we're in - they're occurring in a relatable reference frame.

But that pair-annihilation is not intrinsically time-ordered. Reversing the symmetries involved reveals the particle to be an antiparticle travelling "backwards" in time and vice versa. Either way, the initial and final state are indistinguishable.

(05-08-2014 01:09 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
Quote:It is possible, and seems plausible, that our universe as a whole is a net zero-energy closed fluctuation.

Right, because gravity (negative energy) and matter (positive energy) cancel eachother out, and vacuum fluctuations annihilate each other leaving zero net total energy.

Indeed.

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