Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
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18-02-2014, 08:37 PM
Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
Looking around online trying to pump myself with all sorts of information for when I get into a real life debate with a "believer", I keep finding the issue of this. When it comes down to it, the christians always seem to be able to end the argument when they point out that even if evolution and the big bang were true, where did the first "stuff" come from?

I know a handful of devout christians that believe in evolution and the big bang and their entire premise for continuing to believe in a god rest on the notion that something can't come from nothing so there has to be a something or someone.

I find this hard to argue with and it often leaves me with a dumbfounded look on my face, so I ask you all, where did the first "stuff" come from do you think?

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18-02-2014, 08:46 PM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
I don't know is always a better answer than God did it. Perhaps something is more likely than nothing. Don't forget to remind them that this argument will never get them further than a Diest god or gods or who knows what.
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18-02-2014, 08:55 PM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
Currently the only wrong answer to that question is to be certain that there is an answer.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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18-02-2014, 08:59 PM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
If you're asked that question ask where God came from.
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18-02-2014, 09:00 PM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
(18-02-2014 08:37 PM)Pearl Wrote:  Looking around online trying to pump myself with all sorts of information for when I get into a real life debate with a "believer", I keep finding the issue of this. When it comes down to it, the christians always seem to be able to end the argument when they point out that even if evolution and the big bang were true, where did the first "stuff" come from?

I know a handful of devout christians that believe in evolution and the big bang and their entire premise for continuing to believe in a god rest on the notion that something can't come from nothing so there has to be a something or someone.

I find this hard to argue with and it often leaves me with a dumbfounded look on my face, so I ask you all, where did the first "stuff" come from do you think?

Go read A Universe from Nothing it shows a lot of the current theories.




(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-02-2014, 09:02 PM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
(18-02-2014 08:37 PM)Pearl Wrote:  Looking around online trying to pump myself with all sorts of information for when I get into a real life debate with a "believer", I keep finding the issue of this. When it comes down to it, the christians always seem to be able to end the argument when they point out that even if evolution and the big bang were true, where did the first "stuff" come from?

I know a handful of devout christians that believe in evolution and the big bang and their entire premise for continuing to believe in a god rest on the notion that something can't come from nothing so there has to be a something or someone.

I find this hard to argue with and it often leaves me with a dumbfounded look on my face, so I ask you all, where did the first "stuff" come from do you think?
There are many theories.
Some people believe in expansion, where if you heat 11 ounces matter up enough it creates a universe. (The heat would be sufficient energy that is accountable for the energy in said created universe. So, like a trillion trillion degrees.)
The other idea is that the universe is a superorganism, reproducing and stuff.
Or, that the universe goes into a cycle of big bangs and big crunches. (But some people say that everytime this happens, the universe get more spread apart.)

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18-02-2014, 09:06 PM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
Yep, the truth is, nobody knows.

Plonking God in that gap is foolish... God requires a much bigger explanation than a universe.

As freetoreason said, a believer can only argue for a deistic god (since the only thing they can attribute to him is the big bang). A deistic god is more illogical than the traditional Christian idea of God, for the simple reason that it would be illogical for God to create the entire universe and then just ignore it.

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18-02-2014, 09:09 PM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2014 09:47 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
(18-02-2014 08:37 PM)Pearl Wrote:  Looking around online trying to pump myself with all sorts of information for when I get into a real life debate with a "believer", I keep finding the issue of this. When it comes down to it, the christians always seem to be able to end the argument when they point out that even if evolution and the big bang were true, where did the first "stuff" come from?

I know a handful of devout christians that believe in evolution and the big bang and their entire premise for continuing to believe in a god rest on the notion that something can't come from nothing so there has to be a something or someone.

I find this hard to argue with and it often leaves me with a dumbfounded look on my face, so I ask you all, where did the first "stuff" come from do you think?

cljr or some other physicist can correct me here, but I think the cosmologists are just starting to explore the Planck Epoch. Bottom line is some serious shit happened between time 0 and time 10^-43 seconds. I think the singularity got so fucking bored it blew itself up and the rest is just shrapnel. ... But after the Planck Epoch physicists start to have a much better handle on things after time 10^-43 seconds. Thumbsup

Cosmology always makes me think I blew my mind out in a car 'cause I didn't notice that the lights had changed. Hobo




As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-02-2014, 09:21 PM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2014 09:27 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
Easy.
Their god is omnipotent right ?
An omnipotent god created a race of robots with "free will" who were empowered to make universes to play with.
The rules were that the robot who got the most idiots in it's universe to believe that a "loving god" (not the robot) created the universe, won the prize.
Tell them our robot thanks them.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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18-02-2014, 09:52 PM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
The natural argument against that, I'd think, is to ask where God came from. How can he just exist? Didn't something have to make him? How could he be without a creator? Then again they're probably going to claim their god is all powerful and doesn't need a creature cuz he's awesome (or whatever). Wish I had a better grasp on science to give you a better answer. Here's to hoping there's something better in that Lawrence Krauss video or that you at least have a good taste in music so you can enjoy "A Day in the Life." Now if you excuse me, I'm going to find my "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band."

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