Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
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18-02-2014, 10:09 PM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
(18-02-2014 09:52 PM)Miss Suzanne Wrote:  Now if you excuse me, I'm going to find my "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band."





It's wonderful to be here
It's certainly a thrill
You're such a lovely audience
We'd like to take you home with us
We'd love to take you home

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-02-2014, 10:50 PM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
(18-02-2014 10:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-02-2014 09:52 PM)Miss Suzanne Wrote:  Now if you excuse me, I'm going to find my "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band."





It's wonderful to be here
It's certainly a thrill
You're such a lovely audience
We'd like to take you home with us
We'd love to take you home

Ahhh, yes yes a thousand times yes! Though I think a little something is missing there! Maybe fitting for this thread. Swear I'm not trying to make your tread a Beatles thread, Pearl! But I have to. I can't not.





Oh I get by with a little help from my friends
Mmm, gonna try with a little help from my friends
Get high with a little help from my friends
Gonna get by with a little help from my friends!

[Image: notagain.gif]
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18-02-2014, 11:31 PM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
If you want to give a kind of half ass'ed answer to any christian just say "The first stuff is all around us. It doesn't go anywhere, therefore it can't come from anywhere. There is a law of conservation of energy. Go back in time as far as you want and you still have stuff. It doesn't suddenly disappear as you go back in time. It may look different, but the stuff is still there."

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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19-02-2014, 08:06 AM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
(18-02-2014 11:31 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you want to give a kind of half ass'ed answer to any christian just say "The first stuff is all around us. It doesn't go anywhere, therefore it can't come from anywhere. There is a law of conservation of energy. Go back in time as far as you want and you still have stuff. It doesn't suddenly disappear as you go back in time. It may look different, but the stuff is still there."
And that's why its impossible to define "nothing" in scientific terms.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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19-02-2014, 08:33 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 07:10 PM by Free.)
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
(18-02-2014 08:37 PM)Pearl Wrote:  Looking around online trying to pump myself with all sorts of information for when I get into a real life debate with a "believer", I keep finding the issue of this. When it comes down to it, the christians always seem to be able to end the argument when they point out that even if evolution and the big bang were true, where did the first "stuff" come from?

I know a handful of devout christians that believe in evolution and the big bang and their entire premise for continuing to believe in a god rest on the notion that something can't come from nothing so there has to be a something or someone.

I find this hard to argue with and it often leaves me with a dumbfounded look on my face, so I ask you all, where did the first "stuff" come from do you think?

As humans who have a sense of a finite existence we are prone to seeing the beginning and ending of all things. We see the beginning of life of people and creation of other things, and we also see the death and destruction of things.

However, what humans do not often think about is the greater reality that things perhaps do not have a beginning, but are merely transformations of a previous form of existence. Also, things do not end, as they are merely transforming into another form of existence.

From a scientific point of view, it has been demonstrated that energy and matter transform continuously, with matter breaking down to pure energy, and energy transforming into matter. Since we know scientifically that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then it only follows that energy is an eternal force that had no origin and will have no end. It merely transforms into matter, and then matter transforms back into energy, and this reciprocal process is eternal.

This brings up the question of infinity. We can demonstrate the concept to support the existence of infinity by merely counting numbers ... 1 ... 2 ... 3 .... with the understanding that we could continue to count numbers infinitely, and since we could do it infinitely, that means we could also count numbers eternally, forever. Therefore, with this very simple demonstration we can reasonably conclude that both infinity and eternity co-exist.

So to answer the question of "Where did the stuff come from" in relation to the Big Bang, we can reply that it never had an origin, but instead was merely a transformation of a previous form comprised of matter and energy, which have always existed, and will continue to do so eternally.

What this simple demonstration does is provide insight into the most likely reality that the universe never had an origin, and that the Big Bang was an occurrence that happened within the universe, as opposed to the Big Bang creating the universe.

If the universe can be seen as an infinite domain, then it follows that infinite Big Bangs have occurred, and that both matter and energy are of an infinite quantity and exist as eternal entities in the endless/infinite abyss.

There was no origin. Things just always existed in one form or another. It's not a matter of "knowing," because both eternity and infinity can never be known. Instead, it's merely a matter of "acceptance."

Humans need to learn to accept as a reality the absence of knowledge in relation to what is unknowable. After all, we can "know" that something is "unknowable," but then we can still continue to move forward from there into an infinite number of new discoveries.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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19-02-2014, 08:40 AM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
(18-02-2014 08:37 PM)Pearl Wrote:  Looking around online trying to pump myself with all sorts of information for when I get into a real life debate with a "believer", I keep finding the issue of this. When it comes down to it, the christians always seem to be able to end the argument when they point out that even if evolution and the big bang were true, where did the first "stuff" come from?

I know a handful of devout christians that believe in evolution and the big bang and their entire premise for continuing to believe in a god rest on the notion that something can't come from nothing so there has to be a something or someone.

I find this hard to argue with and it often leaves me with a dumbfounded look on my face, so I ask you all, where did the first "stuff" come from do you think?

That's not something you need to answer. You are not making any sort of claim, and the question is merely an xtard's attempt to shift their burden of proof. Regardless of whether "something came from nothing or whatever, their fairy tale is still a fairy tale. You are under no obligation at all to provide an alternative theory to their batshit claims.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-02-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
I'm not a physicist but from what I understand just after the big bang there was basically pure radiation along with a few exotic elementary particles. A physicist might be able to speculate on whether all those particles formed from energy or not.

My favourite theory is that every universe is formed when a black hole is created. Of course if that is true the next question is where did the mother universe come from? But it would also suggest that what was present at the beginning of the big bang was anything capable of making it through a black hole, e.g. the smallest particle, energy, who knows?

Any logically consistent scientific model about the origins of the universe needs to be validated through observation and experimentation and achieving that is difficult.

What's important to remember is that Science has a good understanding of most of what has happened since the universe was full of radiation and exotic particles. The gap that a God might be placed in isn't really that big any more.
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19-02-2014, 09:20 AM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
If you don't know don't make shit up. So far even scientists don't know.
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19-02-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
(19-02-2014 09:20 AM)donotwant Wrote:  If you don't know, don't make shit up.

Now that would make a good T-Shirt.
Applies to all Woo.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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19-02-2014, 09:44 AM
RE: Soooo where did the first "stuff" come from?
Humans trying to find an answer to such questions are like cats trying to understand why their human spends his whole day without hunting and instead spends hours in front of a TV or a computer.

They'll probably never figure it out because their brain is incapable of grasping it.

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
-Guybrush Threepwood-
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