Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
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15-03-2016, 08:34 AM
RE: Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
(15-03-2016 07:33 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Liberal Christians, and also many Catholics I know, accept that the universe is billions of years old. I also think ancient Hindu cosmology was nothing to sneeze at.

That's silly, the beliefs that the universe if a few billions years old is not exclusively a liberal or catholic thing. Plenty of conservative evangelicals subscribe to that view, while many of them would still reject evolution.

In fact when it comes to Americans only 18% believe when asked explicitly whether they believe the earth is a few thousand years old, agreed.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2016, 08:35 AM
RE: Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
(15-03-2016 08:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 08:04 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I'm well aware of it.

Yes, a direct focused matter would help as it would also help you. Your thinking is routine in this manner of ignoring direct messages and ranting onward to state something against some assumption you made.

I think I'm as direct as it comes, if not too direct and narrowly focused.


Quote:You went on about "exclusivity" which is not a component that's actually or needingly is there in the argument.

Your basis for that is flawed as it is not direct nor a sound connection to the post.

When you hold a view that your religion is right and other religions are wrong, when you believe that you're religion is true, and other religions are false, this is about exclusivity.

This claim as a general statement is perhaps true when it comes to Christianity or Islam in general (though there are dissenters among the flock as well), and perhaps to some degree Judaism, it's not true of Hinduism, or Buddhism as a general statement of these traditions.

You are direct in that way thought that's not what the statement is saying, I'm saying you don't use a direct focused manner to lead to conclusions. As in you don't deduct things, you just assume solutions to open ended ideas way too much.

This is just your black/white point that is assumption based and not directly following anything said. You seem like you don't want to or just can't grasp over constant posting that I am right doesn't mean you're wrong.

The "general statement" isn't at any point here stated as (i'm right, you're wrong) You just added in your interpretation, for whatever reason, to make it that way. It's not a direct representation of the points. It's not the only way people can think, you would be better served to still realize in your thoughts that others think differently than you.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-03-2016, 08:37 AM
RE: Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
(15-03-2016 07:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 06:38 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Saying the scope can be opened beyond your view & thinking that view is right is still thinking you are right. Which is still applied via that.

That's not a direct logical only on/off switch case you would say is wrong in this description.

(I see you're just inferring the concept of "exclusivity" despite it's non explicit manner being in the statement)

It's certainly not true for all forms of buddhists, but people when wanting to apply it to reasonable cleanliness want to act like Zen Buddhism is the majority form when those realms are probably a bit more like a quarter, if that high up.

I have no idea were to begin to parse out whatever your point is. Perhaps there's a valid one in there, but I can't decipher it.

I'm not sure you're aware of the fact that your style of writing comes off unclear and vague, and I doubt I'm the only one that's ever pointed that out to you. You seem to have a habit of expressing things in way that's far more complicated than need be, and perhaps need to find a way to communicate in a more direct and focused manner.

Oh look. He's complaining about other peoples writing.
Bwawawawa.
Remind us again, why you're here ?

Oh. I remember. Self-righteous church lady. That's it.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-03-2016, 08:39 AM
RE: Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
(15-03-2016 08:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 07:33 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Liberal Christians, and also many Catholics I know, accept that the universe is billions of years old. I also think ancient Hindu cosmology was nothing to sneeze at.

That's silly, the beliefs that the universe if a few billions years old is not exclusively a liberal or catholic thing. Plenty of conservative evangelicals subscribe to that view, while many of them would still reject evolution.

In fact when it comes to Americans only 18% believe when asked explicitly whether they believe the earth is a few thousand years old, agreed.

You know the idea of liberal christianity doesn't equate or contrast the idea of conservative/liberal politics right. Those aren't the same thing.

liberal christianity is just the label of that "reformation" (though not like official reformation I think) of the attempts to bind the ideas of christianity explicitly to modern culture/scientific findings from the early 20th century to still today.

It doesn't mean anything about your actual liberal or conservative politics in total.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-03-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
(15-03-2016 08:37 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 07:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I have no idea were to begin to parse out whatever your point is. Perhaps there's a valid one in there, but I can't decipher it.

I'm not sure you're aware of the fact that your style of writing comes off unclear and vague, and I doubt I'm the only one that's ever pointed that out to you. You seem to have a habit of expressing things in way that's far more complicated than need be, and perhaps need to find a way to communicate in a more direct and focused manner.

Oh look. He's complaining about other peoples writing.
Bwawawawa.
Remind us again, why you're here ?

Oh. I remember. Self-righteous church lady. That's it.

Hey I deserve it and all, I just like it a little bit too. I just am a poseur wannabe hoc at nowhere near that level Weeping

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-03-2016, 09:14 AM
RE: Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
(15-03-2016 08:22 AM)Leo Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 07:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  My religious education is Jewish (orthodox) and I was told that the universe is billions of years old.

Orthodox Jews in general believe that the universe is billions of years old ? Or it depends of individual rabbi's opinion ?

The stuff below are snippets from this Wikipedia article. It reflects my undersanding of the Jewish view on evolution vs. Genesis. Not every Jewish movement accepts evolution. Chabad rejects it and some sects within Haradi Judaism reject it. Just about everyone else is on board.

Today, many Jews accept the theory of evolution and do not see it as incompatible with traditional Judaism, reflecting the emphasis of prominent rabbis such as the Vilna Gaon and Maimonides on the ethical rather than factual significance of scripture.

The non-literal approach [to Genesis] is accepted by many as a possible approach within Modern Orthodox Judaism and some segments of Haredi Judaism.

The Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) [Orthodox] has "maintained that evolutionary theory, properly understood, is not incompatible with belief in a Divine Creator, nor with the first 2 chapters of Genesis." Prominent Orthodox rabbis [have] affirmed that the world is older, and that life has evolved over time...

Conservative Judaism embraces science as a way to learn about the world, and like Orthodox and Reform Judaism, has not found the theory of evolution a challenge to traditional Jewish theology.

In his commentary on the Torah, Rabbi Bahya ben Asher (11th century, Spain) concludes that there were many time systems occurring in the universe long before the spans of history that man is familiar with. Based on the Kabbalah he calculates that the Earth is billions of years old

Rabbi Isaac of Akko, a prominent Kabbalist of 13th-century, held that the Universe is about 15 billion years old.

A literal interpretation of the biblical Creation story among classic rabbinic commentators is uncommon. Thus Bible commentator Abraham Ibn Ezra (11th Century) wrote, If there appears something in the Torah which contradicts reason…then here one should seek for the solution in a figurative interpretation…the narrative of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for instance, can only be understood in a figurative sense.

I've seen Bucky commenting quite a few times that these stories were commonly understood to be figurative, not literal.

I liked a bunch of the quotes, but I know my posts tend to be a on the long side. Here are a few more if you're interested.


“Conservative Judaism has always been premised on the total embrace of critical inquiry and science. More than being compatible with Conservative Judaism, I would say that it is a mitzvah to learn about the world and the way it works to the best of our abilities, since that is to marvel with awe at God's handiwork. To not do so is sinful”

Some medieval philosophical rationalists, such as Maimonides and Gersonides held that not every statement in Genesis is meant literally. In this view, one was obligated to understand Torah in a way that was compatible with the findings of science Indeed, Maimonides, one of the great Rabbis of the Middle Ages, wrote that if science and Torah were misaligned, it was either because science was not understood or the Torah was misinterpreted. Maimonides argued that if science proved a point that did not contradict any fundamentals of faith, then the finding should be accepted and scripture should be interpreted accordingly.[/b]

In Judaism, when new data is presented, we don't double down... we reevaluate our understanding of Torah.

Jewish reactions to intelligent design
The movement for intelligent design claims that an intelligent creator is responsible for the origin of life and of humankind, and rejects evolution. Jewish theologians, organizations, and activists have maintained that intelligent design is not valid science but that it is a religious concept. Although some have expressed support for a theistic interpretation of evolution, they have generally rejected the tenets of the intelligent design movement. To Rabbi Brad Hirschfield, President of the National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership, intelligent design is "their attempt to confirm what they already believe." Jewish organizations in the United States have been steadfast in their opposition to the teaching of intelligent design in public schools, charging that to do so would violate the separation of church and state.


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15-03-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
(15-03-2016 08:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 07:33 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Liberal Christians, and also many Catholics I know, accept that the universe is billions of years old. I also think ancient Hindu cosmology was nothing to sneeze at.

That's silly, the beliefs that the universe if a few billions years old is not exclusively a liberal or catholic thing. Plenty of conservative evangelicals subscribe to that view, while many of them would still reject evolution.

In fact when it comes to Americans only 18% believe when asked explicitly whether they believe the earth is a few thousand years old, agreed.

I never said it was an exclusive thing. That's why I said many liberal christians and Catholics *I know*.
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15-03-2016, 11:51 AM
RE: Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
Yabut.......were you there?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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15-03-2016, 01:32 PM
RE: Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
Even if a Christian, Jew,Muslim, etc. believed in the true age of the earth/universe or in evolution it still doesn't jive with what their Bible says. It's going to get pretty ridiculous the more we progress as a species. Pretty soon, every part of the Bible will be seen as a metaphor for something, what will be the point of believing it anymore? Even the morality of it gets questioned so often it will fall apart unless they can somehow prove without a doubt any of the mystical,magical nonsense was ever real and it won't happen. I find it funny when they try to prove the great flood happened or Sodom and Gomorrah were real places, it still doesn't discount any of the science, that's what they need to focus on. Even if they suddenly found Noah's ark, it's not like we're all gonna say "Oh wow, they found a very big wooden boat. That must mean Yahweh and Jesus are real, woman was mad from a rib, a man lived a fish, etc."

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15-03-2016, 03:40 PM
RE: Sorry humans, this was not put here for us.
(15-03-2016 01:32 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Even if a Christian, Jew,Muslim, etc. believed in the true age of the earth/universe or in evolution it still doesn't jive with what their Bible says. It's going to get pretty ridiculous the more we progress as a species. Pretty soon, every part of the Bible will be seen as a metaphor for something, what will be the point of believing it anymore? Even the morality of it gets questioned so often it will fall apart unless they can somehow prove without a doubt any of the mystical,magical nonsense was ever real and it won't happen. I find it funny when they try to prove the great flood happened or Sodom and Gomorrah were real places, it still doesn't discount any of the science, that's what they need to focus on. Even if they suddenly found Noah's ark, it's not like we're all gonna say "Oh wow, they found a very big wooden boat. That must mean Yahweh and Jesus are real, woman was mad from a rib, a man lived a fish, etc."

Okay, I can’t really speak for Christians and Muslims because these religions proselytize and they are asking you to believe in their book, but you did include Jews in your post, and I’m marginally qualified to speak for Judaism. If Jews accept the true age of the universe (and we largely do), then how we explain our heritage and religious texts to ourselves is really our own business. We are absolutely 100% not interested in convincing the non-Jewish world to believe Judaism at all.

As I pointed out in post #36, Jews have been regarding certain scripture as metaphorical for at least 1,000 years. This didn’t come about because some dark-age Jews dug up a tyrannosaurus rex and needed to make a radical change to Jewish thinking to account for the apparent age of the bones. Our rabbis, sages and scholars said this because the text alludes to an old universe, and because Judaism, by its defining principles, is flexible and intended to grow with humanity, not stunt it.
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