Soviets vs Afghans and U.S. vs Vietnam.
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23-09-2013, 11:23 PM
RE: Soviets vs Afghans and U.S. vs Vietnam.
(23-09-2013 07:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 07:20 PM)I and I Wrote:  So you are differentiating "mujahadeen" from "alqaeda". Do you have any sources to back this differentiation up? Look at the word Mujahadeen, it is a general term that is used to describe fighters in a struggle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen

This may have escaped your notice, but you just answered yourself.

Mujahideen means "fighters in a struggle". Al-Qaeda does not mean "fighters in a struggle". Looks like it's possible to differentiate them!

(23-09-2013 07:20 PM)I and I Wrote:  You were under the impression that "mujahideen" was a fighting force distinct from alqaeda? According to the definition it is an all encompassing term describing all fighters in a struggle.

Sure. Is Al-Qaeda an all-encompassing term describing all fighters in a struggle?

(hint: no)

They're not synonymous, then, now are they?

(23-09-2013 07:20 PM)I and I Wrote:  You also stated that the minute that soviets withdrew the US funding stopped. This is total bullshit, the people that came to power in afghanistan visited washington many times and did business with the US.

Actually, he didn't say that. So inconvenient, isn't it? You can't even address your mischaracterised strawmen very well, let alone what anyone actually says.

The people that came to power in Afghanistan were called the Taliban. You may notice how that is a different word. The United States interacted with them in their capacity as a national government.

Ooh semantics

You really are a stupid mother fucker ( your claim that bush didn't lie).

Where do you think members of the Taliban were during the war against the soviets?
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24-09-2013, 01:12 AM
RE: Soviets vs Afghans and U.S. vs Vietnam.
You're an idiot I&I.

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24-09-2013, 01:49 AM
RE: Soviets vs Afghans and U.S. vs Vietnam.
(23-09-2013 07:20 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 08:35 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  The US sent weapons to the Mujahideen, which then distributed arms and equipment throughout the generally warlord operated tribe-cells, any weapons that were supplied to the cell Bin Laden operated in that eventually mutated into Al-Qaeda were sent by happen-stance and by the decision of Mujahideen command, and besides, weapons were being sent long before Al-Qaeda even existed (it was formed in 1988, a year before the wars end and Soviet withdrawal).

Besides, if you want to talk about weapon shipments in support of the Mujahideen Insurgents, perhaps you should also be making note that Egypt sent their dated weapons to the Muja while they were going through rearmament, Turkey sent a big chunk of their WWII stockpiles, the British provided Blowpipe missiles and the Swiss sent Oerlikon AA guns and the Chinese supplied most of the useful weapons to the Mujahideen as per their history of guerrilla warfare and the recent Sino-Soviet Split. The worst the US did was send Stinger units and trained Mujahideen to use them, they cut off all funding and weapons the minute the Soviets had withdrawn.

So you are differentiating "mujahadeen" from "alqaeda". Do you have any sources to back this differentiation up? Look at the word Mujahadeen, it is a general term that is used to describe fighters in a struggle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen

You were under the impression that "mujahideen" was a fighting force distinct from alqaeda? According to the definition it is an all encompassing term describing all fighters in a struggle.

You also stated that the minute that soviets withdrew the US funding stopped. This is total bullshit, the people that came to power in afghanistan visited washington many times and did business with the US.

I stand corrected: Operation Cyclone (the CIA operation responsible for funding and arming Mujahideen warlords) continued until 1992 in order to dethrone the PDPA headed by Mohammad Najibullah, but has since ceased entirely. Cyclone began in 1980 and properly ended in 1992 when the objective was achieved.

In regards to the definition of the term "mujahideen", you are correct, typically it means people in struggle or people doing jihad. And in a way, operatives in Al-Qaeda are then Mujahideen, however, the distinction is a valid one, namely as what is generally recognised as the Mujahideen during the Soviet War in Afghanistan formed long before Al-Qaeda, some elements existed and were troubling the Communist coup before the Soviets even considered taking military action and were a root cause of the War to begin with (putting the highly unpopular communist coup aside for a moment, of course).
Al-Qaeda on the other hand only formed somewhere around August 1988 to late 1989 and thus as far as I see, there is a physical disconnect between the Afghan Mujahideen groups as a whole and Al-Qaeda as a singular entity.

Also, while researching this to ensure I was correct, I did come across these, which I must say, I found particularly interesting:

Munir Akram Wrote:The strategy to support the Afghans against Soviet military intervention was evolved by several intelligence agencies, including the C.I.A. and Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI. After the Soviet withdrawal, the Western powers walked away from the region, leaving behind 40,000 militants imported from several countries to wage the anti-Soviet jihad. Pakistan was left to face the blowback of extremism, drugs and guns.
Jason Burke Wrote:It is often said that bin Laden was funded by the CIA. This is not true and, indeed, would have been impossible given the structure of funding that General Zia ul-Haq, who had taken power in Pakistan in 1977, had set up. A condition of Zia's cooperation with the American plan to turn Afghanistan into the Soviets' 'Vietnam' was that all American funding to the Afghan resistance had to be channelled through the Pakistani government, which in effect meant the Afghan bureau of the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), the military spy agency. The American funding, which went exclusively to the Afghan mujahideen groups, not the Arab volunteers, was supplemented by Saudi government money and huge funds raised from mosques, non-governmental charitable institutions and private donors throughout the Islamic world.

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24-09-2013, 06:24 AM
Re: Soviets vs Afghans and U.S. vs Vietnam.
Define lose?

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24-09-2013, 07:40 AM
RE: Soviets vs Afghans and U.S. vs Vietnam.
(23-09-2013 11:23 PM)I and I Wrote:  Ooh semantics

I know right?

If you don't like it, why'd you bring it up?

(23-09-2013 11:23 PM)I and I Wrote:  You really are a stupid mother fucker ( your claim that bush didn't lie).

It's like you're mentally challenged or something.

You're incapable of not bringing this up, despite having no citation to back it up, despite your own amazing ability to read minds in the past, and despite the total irrelevance.

(23-09-2013 11:23 PM)I and I Wrote:  Where do you think members of the Taliban were during the war against the soviets?

Many of the same individuals were perhaps involved. That does not mean they are the same. The Taliban was not founded until 1994. Read a book.

Islamic fundamentalists are not some sort of hivemind. Are you for real?

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24-09-2013, 07:41 AM
RE: Soviets vs Afghans and U.S. vs Vietnam.
(24-09-2013 01:49 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 07:20 PM)I and I Wrote:  So you are differentiating "mujahadeen" from "alqaeda". Do you have any sources to back this differentiation up? Look at the word Mujahadeen, it is a general term that is used to describe fighters in a struggle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen

You were under the impression that "mujahideen" was a fighting force distinct from alqaeda? According to the definition it is an all encompassing term describing all fighters in a struggle.

You also stated that the minute that soviets withdrew the US funding stopped. This is total bullshit, the people that came to power in afghanistan visited washington many times and did business with the US.

I stand corrected: Operation Cyclone (the CIA operation responsible for funding and arming Mujahideen warlords) continued until 1992 in order to dethrone the PDPA headed by Mohammad Najibullah, but has since ceased entirely. Cyclone began in 1980 and properly ended in 1992 when the objective was achieved.

In regards to the definition of the term "mujahideen", you are correct, typically it means people in struggle or people doing jihad. And in a way, operatives in Al-Qaeda are then Mujahideen, however, the distinction is a valid one, namely as what is generally recognised as the Mujahideen during the Soviet War in Afghanistan formed long before Al-Qaeda, some elements existed and were troubling the Communist coup before the Soviets even considered taking military action and were a root cause of the War to begin with (putting the highly unpopular communist coup aside for a moment, of course).
Al-Qaeda on the other hand only formed somewhere around August 1988 to late 1989 and thus as far as I see, there is a physical disconnect between the Afghan Mujahideen groups as a whole and Al-Qaeda as a singular entity.

Also, while researching this to ensure I was correct, I did come across these, which I must say, I found particularly interesting:

Munir Akram Wrote:The strategy to support the Afghans against Soviet military intervention was evolved by several intelligence agencies, including the C.I.A. and Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI. After the Soviet withdrawal, the Western powers walked away from the region, leaving behind 40,000 militants imported from several countries to wage the anti-Soviet jihad. Pakistan was left to face the blowback of extremism, drugs and guns.
Jason Burke Wrote:It is often said that bin Laden was funded by the CIA. This is not true and, indeed, would have been impossible given the structure of funding that General Zia ul-Haq, who had taken power in Pakistan in 1977, had set up. A condition of Zia's cooperation with the American plan to turn Afghanistan into the Soviets' 'Vietnam' was that all American funding to the Afghan resistance had to be channelled through the Pakistani government, which in effect meant the Afghan bureau of the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), the military spy agency. The American funding, which went exclusively to the Afghan mujahideen groups, not the Arab volunteers, was supplemented by Saudi government money and huge funds raised from mosques, non-governmental charitable institutions and private donors throughout the Islamic world.

The Taliban held power in afghanistan, members of the taliban were extremely fucking likely a representative of the groups that fought against the Soviets. The Taliban made numerous visits to US as diplomats. The US continued to fund and have diplomatic relations with the people that kicked the Soviets out.

The difference in names means very little when looking at the composition of the fighters in each group. Remember these are names that the west gave them, not what they referred to themselves as. The fighters that kicked the soviets out all fought with each other and like the rebels in Syria, shift from one week fighting with mainly a group of x clan and the next week fighting with y clan. It depends on battle and mission as to who is fighting in what groups.

Do you know when the term Alqaeda was first used as a reference to bin ladens fighters?
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24-09-2013, 07:43 AM
RE: Soviets vs Afghans and U.S. vs Vietnam.
Not to mention, Hillary Clinton and other former top officials also claim the US supported alqaeda.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/09/s...o-911.html
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24-09-2013, 04:55 PM
RE: Soviets vs Afghans and U.S. vs Vietnam.
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