Spaceship "TTA"
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09-10-2011, 01:45 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
Today I have been scouting over a low but pronounced ridge. It stretches most of the distance of the horizon from the vantage point of the crash site and is some 4 or 5km distant from it. Upon topping that ridge I noticed the elbow of a river near the base from my position. It seems about 40m across and too deep to guess at the center but there are shallows at the foot of the ridge. Descending to the river bank is quite steep and a bit treacherous. I approached the waters which I have found to be very clear with quite a lot of movement from right to left. I still don't have a handle on direction yet as the planets rotation has not been determined and the star and 3 small moons we have noticed have unusual paths at least to the glance. I'm sure that will be determined later but as for now, a dismal right to left from the top of the ridge will have to suffice.

There is also quite a lot of swimming creatures that I will have to call fish for now. I see gills, fins, an elongated snout and teeth and are about the size and look of a great northern pike an earth. By general appearance they could be a possible food supply but of course more examination of the water and the creature itself will be needed. In the mean time, there are many edible plants and berries. My hunger has had the best of me I'm afraid and I have done a bad job of testing. Luckily for me, there are no detrimental effects. My hunger has been thoroughly satisfied. I have also noticed what is probably the same fruit source as Stark has mentioned of which I have not partaken. I have also noticed nuts which I have not consumed and will not for now. There are scratch marks on the trunks of those trees from what looks like large claws as well as signs of molting. I will not spend time disturbing those trees.

defacto7

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09-10-2011, 03:03 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
Obviously, any new life-form introduced into an ecosystem will have an effect on that ecosystem - and a large, intelligent predator with big requirements and even bigger desires is going to change it quite a lot. Change may be possible without destruction, if the introduced species makes an effort to adapt, rather than to remake the planet in its own poorly informed self-image.

I never thought hunting and fishing would be outlawed, nor would i attempt to make dietary laws (though previous terran civilizations had them as a matter of course), because, even if i had such power, it would be temporary: descendants always break faith.
I don't even expect to stop anyone hunting and fishing for pleasure. My problem with that - indeed, with killing in general - is personal rather than philosophical.

What i do worry about, on a long-term and philosophical level, is the kind of exploitation that eventually leads to feed-lots, battery hens, puppy mills and circuses. You really must try to avoid the enslavement of other species, because that - objectifying another sentient being - will permanently shape your emerging civilization, the attitudes enshrined in your nascent culture - your relationship to the planet which sustains you, to one another and to the universe. What's at stake is nothing less than your mortal souls.


(Ps Stark Raving, you didn't hear a voice say "Oh, crap, not again!" did you?)

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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09-10-2011, 05:57 PM
 
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
OK, here we are, have done some preliminary explorations. Stark found some fruit that gave him a belly-ache, even though it was delicious, and found a bird that would be easy to catch and, maybe, hunt to extinction. Defacto found some fish-looking creatures and he likes to fish. Peterkin is worried about enslaving sentient life-forms and so am I. Stark thinks that we would be better off with limited technology available from the ship and I see his point. Defacto wants to see the future: what are our long term goals?

It boils down to the fundamental, basic question: do we want to duplicate what we have now, on Earth, or do we want to use the opportunity for a radical, major departure in the human saga?

Personally, I am bored to tears with “more of the same”.

I wish it to be different, not just in detail, but in character and essence.

How do we do it? How do we decide? The question is: what is the fundamental purpose of life that we can agree about?

Obviously, it starts with survival – without that there is nothing else. Once survival is assured, then what?

Picard answered the moneyman with “develop our full potential”. That is a very good goal and it never ends – you can always get better.

What else?

Sharing with each other. Share the work, share the risk, share the reward. Be there for each other and help everywhere we can. That is contrary to the essence of Capitalism: competition. That’s fine with me. I think competition is destructive and stupid. Only mentally unbalanced individuals need to one-up each other all the time.

We can find meaning in being a family: with shared goals, with shared contribution, with love, respect and affection for each other. Nothing ever gave me more pleasure in life than true friendship. We can all be friends and forge a community we can be proud of – a community that is a living thing by itself with desires and goals and accomplishments.

In my mind that is the most we can accomplish on our new planet, a goal that is self-justifying, endless source of pleasure and, what is the best part of it: attainable.

It does not matter on what level of comfort and technology we achieve that. If we do, we will have redeemed humanity’s bloody history of millennia.

Deep down we all know this. All the utopias of our childhood like “Shangri-La”, speak of our yearning to be creative, productive, thriving together in a non-destructive way.

This new planet is our chance for a new beginning.

Are we going to use it for something we always wanted, or more of the same we all hate?

Decisions will need to be made on this philosophical level, as well as on the day-today practical one.
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09-10-2011, 10:24 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
Moderation is key. Tolerance is necessary because of our human propensity for genetic survival. Stark, I have a problem with herding, stocking or breeding animals. If we find it necessity for survival that makes a difference but if there are animal resources that include meat production I would rather see use of such coming from natural sources. If hunting is necessary, and I am not suggesting it is, then the prey needs to be able to defend itself and not be domesticated. An Eco-system can get pretty far eschew from both the bi-product of domestication and the genetic disorientation of it. Suffering is not high on my list of allowable conditions no matter what creature in involved and the domestication process is almost always suffering. So if there must be a choice, hunting within the bounds of respect where suffering is limited would be preferable to domestication.

I am not adverse to doing away with animal food sources that are the product of killing. Animals can also provide a lot of food resources that do not involve killing such as eggs or milk but then I have never milked a wild creature either. 'May be risky Wink There may be a time when we will not have clothing resources and I'm not sure where animal products will be needed in that regard. Maybe there are some possibilities for a co-dependence relationship that is somewhere between wild and domestic that could provide animal bi-products that are useful. I guess that would depend on the disposition of the animal in question.

Meat, even fish are not a necessity for me. I also have no problem with meat usage either, as long as we are not domesticating, breeding, slaughtering, caging or limiting the natural progression of any creature. As far as hunting or fishing for the joy of sport, you will definitely find an adversary in me as it is not a necessity for survival and it is not productive to any natural environment especially one we know nothing about and from which we have not originated. It is not a moderate position.

I think we may look to parts of aboriginal histories in North America and others for some guidance with regard to our relationship to nature adding what we have learned about the science of ecology and keeping in mind our past mistakes. Nomadic lifestyles could prove less of a problem for our new home than digging in.

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10-10-2011, 07:09 AM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
Possible lesson from North American tribes, particularly of the west coast: limited migration between two familiar locales, not unlike the snow-birds. Permanent winter homes and temporary summer camps. This allows the land at the other place to recover, while also obviating the need for heavy winter clothing* and giving you access to a more diverse source of food and other materials.
*and snow shoveling, and fuel burning for heat... but there is no need, if the number of humans remains manageable, to locate domiciles in the uncomfortable climates at all; you can still go there to explore and to collect musk ox hair and ginger.

For clothing, plants provide plenty of fibers - along with the dye to decorate it and sap to render it waterproof. And what if you could train creepers on a trellis to form a fragrant tent? Plants are almost infinitely versatile.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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10-10-2011, 07:26 AM
 
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
Looks like we have slightly different (all respectable) attitudes toward hunting, domesticating animals and eating meat.

I am sure a consensus of some kind could be found.

I have to tell you, briefly, how we became vegetarians.

When we moved out to the country from the big city and had 50 acres to do with as we pleased, I wanted to build a chicken coop. My wife said: No. When I asked why, she said: “we don’t kill and eat anyone we know personally”. I said: “it is hypocrisy -- if we are not willing to kill them, we shouldn’t eat meat”. She agreed. Since then we have not eaten any (25 years ago).

It is so much easier to exploit/kill/torture animals (in factory farms and chicken factories) by remote control.

We seem to have the following options:

A. Hunt and kill for the fun of it.
B. Hunt, kill, domesticate and eat for individual consumption only.
C. Hunt, kill and domesticate for others as a service, for barter or profit.
D. Very Long Term aim: develop science and technology to synthesize food from basic chemicals.

My preference is, obviously, D. I can live with B., but would have serious problem calling people friends who do A. -- and I know the horrors C. leads to.

Any thoughts?

Another topic.

Pretty soon we will have to start making tools for our activities.

We have plants, animals, wood, stone, coal and metal ores (presumably) on the planet, and whatever we can get from the space ship (metal. plastic, glass, fabric).

Before we start hacking away, we need to have agreement about:

- environment protection
- garbage disposal

Suggestions?
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10-10-2011, 03:27 PM (This post was last modified: 10-10-2011 03:31 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
(10-10-2011 07:26 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  We seem to have the following options:

A. Hunt and kill for the fun of it.
B. Hunt, kill, domesticate and eat for individual consumption only.
C. Hunt, kill and domesticate for others as a service, for barter or profit.
D. Very Long Term aim: develop science and technology to synthesize food from basic chemicals.

D may not be as long term as we think given that we are at an inflection point on technology's exponential curve. But there is one category of hunter you left out.

E. Those who hunt as prayer to remind them of their own mortality and approach the act of taking the life of another living being with reverence and awe.

I'm not a hunter, but I do know those who fit in category E. But there's probably not many of them, and they certainly are not representative.

(09-10-2011 05:57 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  Sharing with each other. Share the work, share the risk, share the reward. Be there for each other and help everywhere we can. That is contrary to the essence of Capitalism: competition. That’s fine with me. I think competition is destructive and stupid. Only mentally unbalanced individuals need to one-up each other all the time.
....
Before we start hacking away, we need to have agree
ment about:

- environment protection
- garbage disposal

Suggestions?

Well I'll be godammed Zatamon, but it looks to me like your spaceship veered off course and landed right in the middle of Wall Street. Looks like they've already started covering some of the bases being discussed here. Wink

I especially like the guy holding up the sign "Eat the Rich". Reminds me of a conversation with my actuary brother some decades ago when we were discussing "Trickle Down Economics" and he pointed out that it is more aptly called "Tinkle Down Economics" because all it consists of is the rich pissing on the poor and trying to convince them that it's honey. My only response was, "Share the wealth, eat the rich."




As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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10-10-2011, 04:32 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
(08-10-2011 01:01 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  
(08-10-2011 12:39 PM)The_observer Wrote:  I'm kind of a generalist, I can do as good as anything from feeding babies, changing diapers, karaoke, repairing complex machinery and shelter to cooking. however... I am not REALLY good at something specific.

Where do I fit in?

Observer - Everywhere!

I'd be glad to work along side you in the engineering department but we really need some karaoke in the entertainment group!

Hey...Teifel999 - We really need guys like you for just about anything too. Be creative! I'm sure as groups are forming, you will get into some kind of purposeful position. Check out the departments in the previous posts. What would you like to do?

I think I would like to be... A WASHING MACHINE REPAIR MAN, the best job ever.

I am going to hell because i dare to question bronze-age goat herders, and think for myself.
~Me~

I am not smarter than religious people because I have a better understanding of science than them. I am smarter because I know I am not going to live forever, and I am happy with that.
~Me~
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10-10-2011, 06:02 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
(10-10-2011 04:32 PM)Teifel999 Wrote:  I think I would like to be... A WASHING MACHINE REPAIR MAN, the best job ever.

Go for it! Why don't you just figure out what we will use for a washing machine while you're at it. You could be in general repair and maintenance for a lot of needed machine breakdowns. It's a necessity. You could design some kind of needed machine with the materials available on our new planet.

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
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10-10-2011, 06:22 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
As far as the meat situation goes I think I would favour option C. I like the idea of one person providing meat as a service (not so much bartering or profit) as I think have various people having specialised skills makes long term survival more likely and increases quality of life.

I like the idea of not having any sort of currency and having a situation where people work together for a common goal but I'm not at all convinced that it is possible, especially in the long term. All it takes is one person to get greedy and the whole balance can come crashing down. Maybe sort form of currency could combat this issue, maybe there is a better solution. I think that if there is no currency then there has to be some form of court system to settle disputes and hand out punishments. It would have to be completely obeyed without question and completely fair. Obviously if we go down the rotation route then it weakens the authority and could lead us to a 'you scratch my back I'll scratch yours' situation. If we go for a permanent court then we would have to choose people who we think will stay objective and fair even when they have the option to become corrupt and only serve themselves (Stark, Zatamon looking at you here). This would effectively lead us into a shared dictatorship, albeit with a wise and in-corrupt set of dictators. The biggest issue here is succession as it only takes one corruptible person to take power and everything falls apart. I don't think any society can be free from the threat of corruption. I think whatever road we go down in setting up our society then there is always the risk of corruption. All we do is choose the path we think least likely to cause corruption and then try to prevent it when/if it springs up.

Anyone got any thoughts?

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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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