Spaceship "TTA"
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10-10-2011, 06:22 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
I can do a lot of miscellaneous work, but I think I'd like to be the first in our defense group, which we will need.
I can see that our perimeter defenses are set up properly and I can check them regularly.
As far as hunting goes, I think we could do well if we used some of the oldest and most basic weapons in human history, 2 good examples being the Ad-ladle and the Burda club. The Ad-ladle is one of the things that brought our early ancestors to the top of the food chain, being simply a piece of wood and some twain used to launch a sharpened stick. While the Burda was one of the favourite weapons of the Celts, consisting of a small, fire hardened wood club with 1 or 2 iron rings wrapped around the top.

I think domesticating animals for resources is a good idea, if we can find common animals that yield what we need than we only need a few to start off with, we don't need to abuse them, pump them full of chemicals or keep them in small iron boxes. We could, perhaps, find some of their nesting areas, and put up a fence in the surrounding area, where all their food, water and whatever else they need is, and enough running room that they don't end up clambering over the fence all the time. Hell the fence may not even be needed, if we found some creatures that were relatively docile to begin with and made sure their food source was more readily available than we wouldn't even need to harvest them, just take a couple now and then and care of the rest from afar.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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10-10-2011, 07:14 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
(10-10-2011 06:22 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  ??

You are either:

1. Joking
2. Trying to split the group
3. Setting up a really, really cool debate.

Wink

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10-10-2011, 07:31 PM
 
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
@Hughsie:

Thoughtful post Hughsie, and hard to answer, but I will try.

I am very worried about the ‘efficiency’ argument – that is what usually (not necessarily) leads to cutting corners, concentrating on quantity rather than quality.

If you introduce currency then we are back to exactly where we are now: people producing for profit, not for sharing. It means they are motivated to earn the maximum amount of money with the minimum effort and expense.

Another danger is growing population to unmanageable size where you can’t have direct-participation democracy any longer. Like what we have now: you would have to work with representatives and that is the best way to corruption. We never addressed the issue of population control, but I think we would not have to: in a well educated and intelligent group (like the TTA) we would want to keep it in balance, I am sure.

Benevolent dictatorship is a very seductive concept (thanks for the thought) – if you are familiar with the Terry Pratchett books (Discworld series), my role model would be Lord Vetinary: ruthless, incorruptible, cunning, highly intelligent and an excellent psychologist (also a trained assassin), devoting all his talents to the public good.

Permanent Courts could lead to permanent corruption – if we rotate the responsibility, like with the Jury System, everybody feels part of their society and would feel motivated to earn the respect of their fellow citizens. Maybe we could have permanent advisors: people with training in Law, Economics, Sociology and Psychology.

@UnderThe Microscope:

I will nominate you to the role of defense coordinator, I am sure there will be others to vote for you as well. We will need guards against dangerous animals (as yet unknown size and ferocity).

Your thoughts on domesticating animals in a responsible and humane way do point out advantages, however, we are all aware of obvious dangers down the road. We have to guard against the danger of ending up exactly where we are now. We need to try a drastically different approach to our relationship with our new Planet and securing our food supply.

That is why I think that we should be putting all our efforts into developing/repairing StartTrek-like Replicators. GirlyMan assures us that the technology is not that far off and we may already have it on the SpaceShip, but it may need repair and definitely will need some kind of power source. In the meantime, we won’t starve (months worth of food in the space ship) and Stark will instruct us (SOON, I hope) in sustainable agricultural practices.

@GirlyMan:
I am not sure what you mean by E: -- could you elaborate?
Wall Street is quite safe from me -- since I don’t watch the news I am not sure what is going on there (the video showed a huge demonstration) – has the Revolution in America started already? So much better then that we are on another planet, without hope for return (I have lived through a Revolution before, I know how they usually end.)
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10-10-2011, 08:14 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
(10-10-2011 06:22 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  As far as the meat situation goes I think I would favour option C. I like the idea of one person providing meat as a service (not so much bartering or profit) as I think have various people having specialised skills makes long term survival more likely and increases quality of life.

Some specialization is almost inevitable, since aptitudes and proclivities vary. The danger with this is assigning higher value to the skills of which there are few practitioners - even though only a few are required - and lower value to other work that doesn't need so much training, but is unpleasant or physically demanding. You're setting yourself for a stratified society with a pampered elite at the top and an unhappy majority below.

Quote: I like the idea of not having any sort of currency and having a situation where people work together for a common goal but I'm not at all convinced that it is possible, especially in the long term.

The long term will undoubtedly see changes. But it will proceed, at least for a while, on the path you lay out at the start. If you can figure out a better way now, your descendants at least won't have to struggle with the legacy of your mistakes.

Quote: All it takes is one person to get greedy and the whole balance can come crashing down. Maybe sort form of currency could combat this issue,

Currency will only make it worse. The more complicated a transaction, the more steps between maker and end-user, the more ways dishonest people can find to cheat. What you need to do is acknowledge that greed happens in the best of families, figure out how it's likely to manifest, and build in safeguards.

Quote:... there has to be some form of court system to settle disputes and hand out punishments.

You'll have disputes with or without currency. you'll have rule-breaking, as well. Arbitration and correction is essential. But it doesn't need to be iron-fist authoritarian. It doesn't even have to punitive, except in the most extreme cases; usually, people can be guided to some kind of compromise, restitution, reconciliation. Remember, it's not a very large number of people: everybody knows everybody and their business and their foibles.

Quote: ... Obviously if we go down the rotation route then it weakens the authority and could lead us to a 'you scratch my back I'll scratch yours' situation.

Do you mean there should be strong authority and obedience, rather than equality and co-operation? Personally, i hate authority. Once you set up a dictatorship - or any situation that allows the possibility of a dictatorship, you will absolutely, inevitably, get the worst possible leaders. That is, the people who want to be leaders for the worst possible reason.

As i've said before, the best way to prevent corruption is for everyone to take turns at administration, distribution and justice. That way, everybody knows exactly how governance works, how much stuff there is and where it's kept : nobody can hide it or lie about it. Most importantly, nobody has time to consolidate power.

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10-10-2011, 08:25 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
If you guys got computers with QWERTY keyboards and shit you need controlled electronically, I can hook you up. If not, I'm cleaning the bathrooms. ... I don't mind cleaning bathrooms.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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10-10-2011, 08:26 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
I'm not saying that rotation is wrong. I'm saying that it is very blinkered to say that it will prevent corruption. It may be marginally better than a benevolent dictatorship, it might not.

One problem with rotation is that the people who are only out for themselves DEFINITELY get a chance to have power and therefore abuse it. With a dictatorship they only maybe do. I can think of several scenarios where it could be detrimental to have a rotation policy, I can also think of several scenarios where it would be detrimental to have a non-rotation policy.

I don't have any fixed opinion on this, I have vague opinions that are very susceptible to change if someone argues convincingly. I do however belief that good dictatorships are far better for people than good democracy's. I also believe that bad dictatorships are far worse for people than bad democracy's.

I think it would be dangerous when setting up our society to see things in black and white. Life is never black and white, just varying shades of grey. We need to look at the benefits and detriments of every possibility, not just pick the idea that we first conceive or that looks best on first glance.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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10-10-2011, 08:31 PM
 
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
(10-10-2011 08:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  If you guys got computers with QWERTY keyboards and shit you need controlled electronically, I can hook you up. If not, I'm cleaning the bathrooms. ... I don't mind cleaning bathrooms.

First, you have to help us build the bathrooms, GirlyMan, we are still using the bushes and they don't need cleaning. Maybe later, we will have the luxury of a computer scientist janitor -- however, I'd rather you helped me develop that inventory management and resource allocation system on our solar-powered PC we found in the space ship. Wink
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10-10-2011, 08:46 PM
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
I was watching a series over the weekend called "I, caveman" and it raised a few important questions.
What do we do for laws? the group on the show had 10 people, but only about 3 or 4 were ever working at a time, most of them decided to go nap in the shade. They wasted valuable food simply because it was "icky", and showed a massive amount of incompetence(IE complaining they were hungry after they threw away good food & complaining about being cold when there was a camp fire they could go warm up next to).
Could we deal with the psychological stress? I'm sure some of us would start feeling "old world blues" or "survivors guilt". The eating methods of the local lifeforms may also prove a bit traumatizing.

@Zatamon, I thank you for the nomination, if you could sum up the landscape directly surrounding our ship than I can get to work planning out some basic fortifications. What types of materials do I have to work with anyway? I assume I will only have a certain amount(a budget if you will).
Oh and a tip to the hunters, don't eat anything you find dead in the pungi trenches.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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10-10-2011, 08:52 PM
 
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
(10-10-2011 08:46 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  @Zatamon, I thank you for the nomination, if you could sum up the landscape directly surrounding our ship than I can get to work planning out some basic fortifications. What types of materials do I have to work with anyway?

I described the immediate surroundings in Post #47 and the available materials in Post #66. Suggestion: read ALL the posts in the thread carefully, so you know ALL the arguments made for and against specific options by everyone in our group.

PS. Please don't mention the "pungi trenches" again -- the idea makes me barf! I am sure there are less barfy solutions. Work on it! Smile
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10-10-2011, 08:53 PM (This post was last modified: 10-10-2011 09:47 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Spaceship "TTA"
(10-10-2011 08:31 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  
(10-10-2011 08:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  If you guys got computers with QWERTY keyboards and shit you need controlled electronically, I can hook you up. If not, I'm cleaning the bathrooms. ... I don't mind cleaning bathrooms.

First, you have to help us build the bathrooms, GirlyMan, we are still using the bushes and they don't need cleaning. Maybe later, we will have the luxury of a computer scientist janitor -- however, I'd rather you helped me develop that inventory management and resource allocation system on our solar-powered PC we found in the space ship. Wink

The flush toilet is an under recognized contributor to our social advancement. We should make sure we keep it.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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